Jennifer joins me to talk about the idea of impulse override and how it can help teach dogs to wait for their turn — an important skill in the field trials and hunt tests where she competes! 

 Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'll be talking to Jennifer Henion about teaching dogs to take turns and honor another dog's turn. Hi, Jennifer, welcome back to the podcast.

Jennifer Henion: Hey, Melissa, thanks for having me. Excited to chat.

Melissa Breau: So to start us out, do you want to just remind everybody a little bit about you?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah. So I do retriever field work. I really enjoy doing retriever field trials and hunt tests and just all the training that's involved with that. And I have an online school called Field Puppy Nation and I'm a staff member at Fenzi Dog Sports Academy teaching the same kind of stuff.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. We're super glad to have you. So I wanted to talk about the idea of kind of taking turns today because as somebody who primarily trains for the sports, you just mentioned you kind of come at it from a slightly different angle than most people, I think. So can you talk a little bit about kind of honoring just in general what it means, I guess, in your world and then what it looks like?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah. So it's, it's a huge ask to the dog because first of all, the dog goes up to the performance line and they, that dog performs, watching retrieves being thrown in the field, there's gunfire, there's duck calls. It's very stimulating. So the dog performs and then after that you move to an honor station. And what that means is the handler and dog stand there near the performance line and watch the next team do the same exact performance.

So your dog has to watch again the exciting retrieves happen, the gunfire, all the stuff plus another dog running, bolting into the field after those retrieves. So it's very stimulating and that's what honoring is. So your dog has to be steady watching that other dog work. And it's after their turn, you said, so they work and then they have to come down from that to be able to hold that steady behavior.

I guess that's a huge part of it. I mean, think about the heart rate, the adrenaline, all the chemicals in their system. And then you're nervous too because you're hoping against all hope that they'll sit there and watch it happen again. Yeah, and they've just, all those cues were so salient for them just a couple minutes ago. Right, the, the fire and the throne toy and the, well, the bird in this case.

But you know what I mean, all the things were so important to them just a couple minutes ago, and you wanted them to do things with those things a few minutes ago. And so it's a total change of pace. Yeah, yeah. And it. So in that way, it's a lot like any other type of turn taking where the dog has to watch another dog play with you or work with you. So same kind of deal.

Melissa Breau: Yeah. So that leads really naturally into what I was going to ask you next, which is how does that compare to other situations other dog sports teams might be in? Right. So agility teams or just people with multiple dogs at home or, you know, Frisbee dogs or whatever. Can you just talk about how that might be applicable? That skill might carry over to some other sports.

Jennifer Henion: Yeah, it's very similar, as we just mentioned, of your dog loves playing tug with you, your dog loves training jumps or tunnels with you. And then you set your dog on a station and that dog has to watch either you playing with another dog doing the same things or another team doing that. And so there's that juxtaposition in the dog's head of, wait a minute, that's what I was just doing.

That's what I love doing. So that's the training part that has to occur is to teach them that if they offer us impulse control or impulse override is what I like to call it, that they will actually earn a predictable reward, which might be playing with you again or being released to something else.

Melissa Breau: That's great. So how is the skill we're talking about, you know, different than just teaching a really good stay?

Or is it, I guess, I mean, like, you know, I'm thinking the stay for, like a competition obedience run. Right. Like, how does having that idea of another working dog maybe change the picture for the waiting dog? Well, obviously it's a huge distraction, but here's the deal. Because it's such a huge distraction, we have to. We have to make our training and their impulse control such that it gets rewarded with something as big as what they're giving us, if that makes sense.

So how is stay different than waiting for a release?

Jennifer Henion: So what we're doing here with taking turns is a dog is watching another dog take a turn. Right. What we need to make that into is your dog earning the reward of being released to something awesome instead of just staying in a control position and getting rewarded for that. So here's what that looks like, a stay. I mean, picture it.

You sit your dog and then you put your hand out and you're like, Stay, stay. And then you start to add different distractions, and you reward the dog in control position for handling that distraction, right? That's a stay. So stay is a control position, and it's rewarded in position. Now, I'm saying that that's different than what we want, which is waiting for a release day is still a building block that we're using to create waiting for release.

But waiting your turn, we want to make that into waiting for a release. So let's take an example. If we just train a stay. Let's take the example of tossing a ball. Who can relate to having difficulty teaching our dog to be steady while we throw a ball? For sure, right? If we just train a stay, here's how that would look. Okay, Sit your dog, cue the stay, reward it in place with food, Bounce the ball or drop the ball, reward the dog with food in position.

Pretty soon that food in position is not going to compete with the bouncing ball, and the dog's going to go, screw you. I'm going to go for it. I want the ball. And so guess what happens to your stay. Your stay becomes not rewarding at all. And in fact, it becomes, no, let me compete against mom to get that ball. Or dad. If we train the dog in that example, if we instead train the dog to wait for a release, wait for the turn to go get the ball.

Here's how that works. So again, we sit the dog, or we put them in the control position like a heel, and then we first of all create impulse override for the presence of the ball. So we teach the dog, here's the ball. But I'm not going to give it to you until you offer me a little bit of impulse override. And then I'll reward you with the ball if you do that for me.

Right? So that builds. We layer that up to where we've got the dog and heel position sitting. And now I can place the ball in front of us on the floor. And the dog's like, okay, I know I need to offer a little bit of impulse control. And she'll release me to the ball. And yes, that's exactly what happens. So the reward is always going to be a release to go get what you want or something just as good.

So it's. It's a. The same formula as clicker training, where the dog is working for the click to get the reward, right? But in this way, our release becomes the click. And they know they have to offer that steadiness or impulse override to earn the release, but they know that the release word means I get to go. I get to go get that thing. So the big question that comes up after that is, well, I don't want to release the dog to go visit the other dog who's working.

I don't want to release the dog to go get the ball that the other dog is going for. Right. Here's the magic for that. We need to have a reward sequence, something that's just as valuable, that's either to the side or behind the dog that we can release them to. The dog knows it's there while they're watching, and then we can release them to go get that. When we're working on this, what is it that you think.

Melissa Breau: I mean, you're talking about impulse override. What is it you think the dog is really struggling with in those moments? Is it impulse control itself? Is it frustration? Are we dealing with arousal? Is there some jealousy in there? Like, what is. What are kind of, what's the dog feeling in those moments? Do we think so? You mean like when they're watching another dog take a turn, what is the challenge?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah, the challenge of it is definitely that they want to be doing that. I mean, we're. I'm assuming. And so when they see another dog that just adds that layer of competition, it's like, wait a minute, that guy's gonna get my thing. Or that, you know, that other dog is gonna get the thing I want. That's the challenge. And so for honoring in specific, like in a field trial or hunt test, you can actually break down what that distraction is.

And the first one is the working team arrives in sight and the dog's like, oh, my gosh. The next part of it is that dog, that working dog gets released to go and is running out. So if you can identify the specific parts of what is distracting or challenging in your scenario, you can actually introduce those things in a low key, controllable environment and use your release, your reward sequence to get the dog to go.

Oh, whenever I see a dog enter the picture, that's like a cue that if I offer self control, I'm going to earn a predictable reward that's valuable to me. Does that make sense?

Melissa Breau: Yeah, absolutely. So thinking that through, you know, is there kind of a core concept here that we are instilling in the dog when we're teaching them to take turns this way? Is there like. Like, how would you kind of talk about that conceptually?

Jennifer Henion: I guess, yeah. So it's, it's so much simpler than people think, because it looks like. And Sounds like a huge challenge. And it is if you're just using stay. The concept of stay. The magic of the approach to teaching the dog waiting for a release that has only, like, three components. And it's just like clicker training, where it's. You're basically charging. So, you know, you charge a clicker click treat.

Click treat. And the dog's like, oh, my God. A click means a treat. Well, with a release word. In our training, what we're doing is we're using. We're charging our release word with the thing they want. So if it's a ball, the release word becomes a click, and it's charged with the value of chasing the ball. Okay, so it's a click treat, but in a much more exciting because of the adrenaline to be released to go do something.

So it's like, how do you earn the release word? So how do you earn the click? Well, how do you earn a release word? Well, we're teaching the dog in layers that you earn the release word by. When I bring out this distracting temptation, you offer me clear impulse control or impulse override, and I say, yeah, or I say, get it? You know, the release. And like, oh, my God.

So guess what happens. That excitement of being released and getting the ball is what's charging your release word. And that means they want to work. They're willing to work hard for that release word or that click. And so because that's so valuable, they're willing to do that when watching another dog play tongue with you or watching another dog run out for retrieves. So you mentioned in the earlier kind of the importance of predictability. And the dog kind of needs to know the thing is coming.

Melissa Breau: So why is that such an important piece of the skill? What shift are we looking for or do we get when the dog understands that enduring waiting leads to this predictable thing or to this structure?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah. So the predictability is huge because, okay, let's picture dog sitting or lying down on a cot like a raised bed, watching you play tug with another dog.

And with this system, the way that that dog on the cot is willing to watch that is because they know they're offering an actual behavior. We think about impulse control or impulse override as just a general flowing thing, but it's an actual behavior, if you think about it. And in our training, we make it clear, starting with food in your hand where you, you know, protect the food or, you know, make it so that your dog only gets it if they offer you a clear showing of impulse control.

And then you're like, yeah, and you give them the food. Right. It's the same thing. So they're sitting on a cot. And in the training, let's say it's the beginning of your training, you get the other dog out of their crate and then that's just one chunk. So you're like, yeah. So then you release your other dog to a tug toy that's sitting next to the cot or a bowl of meatballs sitting next to the cot, whatever it is.

So what you're doing is you're creating that mathematical equation that sitting on the cot. Here's a distraction. Good. You offered me impulse control. Now go to your predictable reward that you know is sitting there. Right. And so that in that way, you're shaping your dog's ability to watch another dog work, you just start adding more and more stuff. But you need to have that predictable reward that's tangible and present at first that the dog can go to.

Now if you're in field work, you're gonna be saying, oh, come on, I'm not gonna be able to have a bowl of meatballs or a bird sitting behind me so that the dog can get after honoring. No, but that's the cool thing about shaping. And the reward sequence is that you can stretch it at first. It starts right next to you where the reward is right next to you, but you can stretch it to where.

Okay, it's a behavior chain we just honored. Now we're going to pivot at heel and we're going to take a certain number of steps away from the performance line. And then we're going to either play tug or I'm going to throw a ball or I'm going to have whatever reward waiting for you. So the predictability, that's what the dog is earning. So they know the meatballs are there.

Okay. I'm willing to offer you this self control to earn that click to earn that release.

Melissa Breau: So you mentioned earlier that stay is kind of like a foundation skill for this. How do you start, like the very early pieces of this. How do you kind of introduce it to the dog as a thing that kind of sets them up for success? You mean like the. The picture of actually watching another dog?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah. Or I don't know if everyone's familiar with crate games. So crate using the crate as kind of the same thing as if you have food in your hand and you're playing that Zen game or that self control game with food, the crate is the same, except you're closing the door as if you were closing your hand and the dog gets to where you can open the door to the crate and bounce a ball, and they're offering you impulse control because they know they're going to get rewarded.

So I like to use the crate or some kind of control position that the dog has tremendous value for. For me, that's heel position, but some position where the dog has great value. And then you are using the waiting for release game in conjunction with that and gradually introducing the different layers of temptation. So if I have my dog that I'm training in a crate, I'm going to put that crate in heel position, and at first the door is going to be closed, and then I'm going to toss a treat out in front of me, and I'm going to send another dog to go get that treat.

And while that's happening, I'm going to reward the dog in the crate for being quiet and for sitting. So that exposes the dog to that temptation. Then I can open the door and do the same thing. And the dog is going to accept just food rewards for that. But then I'm going to release that dog in the crate to a toss treat in front, too. So there's like, as I said before, stay is a building block of this.

So that's where that stay building block comes in. But then I'm going to release the dog. So, yeah, you're just basically gradually introducing the dog to those levels of temptation.

Melissa Breau: How do you handle it? If you do start to see, you know, how do you, first of all, how do you prevent, you know, the problem where maybe you go a little too long or the dog that's waiting starts to get frustrated or starts to disengage. And if you start to see that, if you start to get a little bit of whining or something like, how do you handle it?

Jennifer Henion: First of all, it's like anything with positive training. When you have a failure during the performance, you're not going to fix it in that scenario, right? So you need to go, oh, something's wrong. I need to go back to training and figure out what layer I skipped.

So the answer is always going to be layers. You need to do small layers. Quick rewarding. Here's the big challenge I see in participants in my classes is they think that it's about duration. So they'll present a ball or food to get impulse control offerings. And instead of rewarding the dog quickly for making that choice, they think it's about duration. So they'll just have the dog waiting, waiting, waiting to see how Long they can go and then.

So that builds frustration, that gives. That's not clear. It's not black and white. So the key there is introduce a distraction, get the choice, reward that choice. Make it clear in the dog's head that, yeah, I'm making a choice here. That's what gets rewarded. And then as you train that way, you naturally see how to create duration, but you get duration by rewarding quickly in the beginning. So it's all about layers. So if you're getting a frustrated dog, it means you're probably asking for too much duration, that they're not ready for that yet. And so go back to your layers.

Melissa Breau: So we're talking about all of this because you're offering a class on this this term. So taking turns build you'd dog skill for watching another dog work is part of the April class term. So it'll still be open for registration through April 15th. Can you share a little more just about the class and maybe who might want to sign up?

Jennifer Henion: Yeah. So the class uses a specific. We have three class projects that we're going to tackle over the six weeks, and we're just now starting the first class project. And what it does is it helps you build a template, a training template to get success and teach you how to introduce these layers of waiting for release and of introducing the temptation of another dog or toy or whatever your challenge is.

So that's how the class is going to work. We're going to help you build those skills with your dog. And then towards the end of the class, last class project is going to be applying your specific scenario to that training template. And I'm going to help people figure out how to do that.

Melissa Breau: Very cool. All right, so any, I guess, final thoughts or maybe key points you kind of want to leave folks with?

Jennifer Henion: You can do this. It looks hard, it seems hard, but it's really just a matter of some very simple key things. A mastering, waiting for release. It's like clicker training. The dog's just earning a click. You're introducing specific distractions for them to earn that click, which is actually a release. So it's simple. You guys can do this.

Melissa Breau: I like that. I like that vote of confidence. All right, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jennifer.

Jennifer Henion: Thanks, Melissa. It was fun.

Melissa Breau: And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. Before we head out, I have an exciting announcement. So starting next week, we're going to experiment with bringing the podcast to you guys in a new format so you'll still be able to tune in. The way you always have using your favorite podcast app, but you'll also be able to catch the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast on YouTube so you can watch along while we chat if you'd like.

It's going to be over on the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy YouTube channel so you can go to YouTube FenziDogSports and that should come up for you. And for our debut episode over on YouTube, Denise Fenzi is going to join me to talk about her latest thoughts on training, including what it means to train the dog in front of you, what impact she's seen FDSA have over the years and more.

So if you haven't already, be sure to subscribe to the podcast either in itunes, the podcast app of your choice, or over on YouTube and subscribe to us there. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bendsound.com the track featured here is called Buddy Audio Editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!