Erin Lynes, Kim Palermo, Crystal Wing, and Denise Fenzi, all presenters from the upcoming one day conference on Building the Bond join me to talk about what goes into building a bond with a dog. 

 Transcription

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breaux and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'll be talking to Erin Lynes, Kim Palermo, Crystal Wing, and Denise Fenzi about the upcoming Building the Bond One Say Conference. Hi, all. Welcome back to the podcast.

All: Hi, Melissa. Good morning. Hello. Good morning. Hello, Hello.

Melissa Breau: So to start us out, can you guys remind everybody kind of a little bit about you and give folks a sense maybe of whose voice is whose? Erin, you want to start us off?

Erin Lynes: Sure. This is me, Erin Lynes, the crazy Labrador lady from Canada. I'm excited to be here talking to you all today.

Melissa Breau Kim.

Kim Palermo: Hi, I'm Kim Palermo. I'm excited to be here too. I'm not a crazy lab lady. I've got three collies, a mini poodle and a golden retriever. And I specialize in Control Unleashed and ACE Freework.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. Crystal.

Crystal Wing: Howdy. I have pointy, partial pointy and a floppy. I have a Malinois and then a Dutch Shepherd who has one ear that decided to bend over and then a Mal Lab. And we do search and rescue and protection sports.

Melissa Breau: Fantastic. Denise.

Denise Fenzi: Hi, I'm Denise Fenzi and I have three pointies. I have a big, a middle and a small. So that's my differentiation. I like that way of thinking about it.

Melissa Breau: All right, so our conference topic this time around is Building the Bond. So I'd like to just start with the idea of, like, when you hear that phrase, what does it mean for you personally? Kim, you want to start us off?

Kim Palermo: Yeah, sure. It's like that warm, fuzzy feeling, right? I think that's how I could best describe. I mean, I think for me personally, building the bond came very naturally for me. Even as a little girl, I was lucky enough where my parents had, you know, we always had a lot of dogs and a lot of animals. So, like, I built a bond with my very first pet, which was when I was three years old, a little white guinea pig named Popcorn.

And I've been building bonds with animals ever since. So I think for me it's, it goes beyond relationship. It's kind of that connection that is, you know, for me sometimes hard to put into words where it's, you know, it's two sided, you know, the. It's coming from me, it's coming from them, and we have this really special connection. And I think growing up with a lot of different animals, a lot of different dogs.

There's different kinds of bonds that we can have with our animals. I have, you know, I think everyone uses the term heart dog, right? Where we have that, like, really one special dog. And I think that's like. If you think of what that term means to me, that's like the epitome of, like, that bond that you're looking for. But the bond could be something different. It could be more, you know, maybe playful and adventure based or, you know, more just, you know, the dog I go to when I'm feeling sick and I just need to, like, cuddle with someone. So I think I'm excited for this conversation because I think we're going to dive in really deep. But so that's my, like, very skimmed over summary of how I feel. You know what, What? Building the bond is awesome.

Crystal Wing: I have a moment that came to mind with this question. I was sitting on the couch, and across from me was my dog, Quinn.

He was the heart dog, as Kim uses that. I like that expression. And something fell off the counter across the room. It was just the two of us in the room, and something fell off the counter. And he looked at me, and I looked at him, and I shrugged. And he walked across the room. He sniffed the thing on the floor. He looked back at me, went back and sat on the couch.

And we both just kind of looked at each other and we're like, yeah, okay. And we just kept going. And I mean, I think sometimes people think about all the competitions and. But me, that. That was such a defining moment in our. In our lives together. And that's what that bond is for me. It's those small moments that you're connecting, you're having a conversation, but there's no words that need to be said. And so I also believe that it's about that safety and that connection, because there's a comfort to it, but it's really born in that safety of being together.

Denise Fenzi: That's a good question. I'm thinking about this. To me, it's what all of the cumulative experiences that you have with your dog over a long time that are on the positive side of the scale, that create something, it can't be forced.

It's. It has to be mutual. You know, you could love your dog to death, your dog could hate you, and that's not a bond. So it's all of the positive threads that weave together in the middle space between you and any particular dog that creates that warmth and how you feel about that dog.

Erin Lynes: I'm sad that I had to go last on this question because I think it is hard to put into words and these ladies have already expressed many good feelings about it.

But I, I agree probably mostly with those shared experiences that are on the positive side of the scale. I think about when I'm walking through the forest with my dogs and they notice some little smell and I go over to check it out with them and we're, we're kind of sharing this like, sort of meaningless but also kind of cool adventure together. It's, you know, low key. And my dog looks at me and I look at them and they're interested in what I'm interested.

And we share those sorts of little like day to day things. Comfort is probably a good way to feel about it too. Feeling safe in each other's presence, being interested in the same things, maybe getting excited about the same things. I. One of my, one of my favorite dogs right now. One of our special things that we do as a bonding moment is we take an afternoon nap on the couch together.

And it's seems so silly, but he likes to have his naps and I like to have my naps. So we snuggle up together. And just thinking about those little day to day things are where I see my bonds growing with my dogs. So like, since you all told a story, then a story just popped into my head. It kind of makes me laugh. So I got this young upstart border collie who's becoming a pain in the ass like most of my dogs do at a certain point.

And he's so, he's terrible, he's antagonistic, he steals. And now what happens is he'll do something terrible to them like steal, steal his toy or whatever. And Xen looks at me like, did you just see what just happened there? And to me that's like what that bond is. It's kind of like, sorry, buddy, I saw it. But his look at disbelief and then looking at me like, did you see that? So to me, that's like the bond, like we both. I know, I know he's young. He'll get better.

Crystal Wing: Yeah. Even like what Erin said, I love hiking, I love being out in nature. And, and one of my favorite things to do is when they show interest in something, I go over and I look at it too, and I get down with them and I love. They just seem to just get so tickled by it.

They're like, you like this, can you smell that? I mean, they just give you that look of like, you like this too? I'm like, oh, heck yeah, buddy. This is amazing. That's the best mushroom I've ever seen. I see set potential here for, For a video series like, like fence fighting with your dog. You know, like, there's so many options here. Like, the dog is digging, rolling, and I'm okay, maybe I won't do that on this.

I don't even know what the rules are on my own podcast. I hope that was okay. They're fine. Anyway, yeah, so we could all. I'm gonna skip that one, but we could all. All the instructors could do different videos of joining their dogs in on random activities. Like, somebody rings the doorbell and everybody runs to the door barking. That'd be very funny. Yelling like, somebody's here, somebody's here.

And the dogs run at the door. Okay, we gotta do this anyway. Sorry. So wait, you don't. You don't spend your time sitting at the front window, your dog already? That's one of my favorite things to do. I love just sitting at the front window with Checkmate. And you'll see the dog walk by him. Like, I see him. Yeah, you're right. They're over there. I love that game.

Kim Palermo: We know what Crystal's contribution is going to be to the video. My favorite for me was I was. This is years ago. I was out hiking with my two Collies, and all of a sudden this deer, like, came running, like, through the woods, almost hit us, like, across the trail. And as soon as it disappeared, the three of us just looked at each other, like, did you see that? Like, we all just, like, what. What just happened? Yeah. Oh, I love that.

Melissa Breau: So in light of what we're talking about here, it sounds like most of you are on one side of this, but, you know, is the bond something that you feel like typically naturally develops over time? Is it something that has to be intentionally built? Can you guys talk about that a little bit? Crystal?

Crystal Wing: Well, before Yukon, Yukon is my Dutch Shepherd. And he was, we'll just say before him. I would have said that bonding was so natural. Most of my dogs, they just fell into it. Like, we just lived together and we trained together, we played together. And over time, you have all those little moments like we talked about, and you get connection. Then UConn came into my life and that idea got challenged a little bit. He was perfectly happy doing his own thing, even at 10 weeks, like when they're supposed to be, hey, mom, how are you?

You're a human. You help me. And he's like, ah, I'm gonna go over here. So he taught me a lot about this. And as long as I was around to basically feed him, that was what he needed. And I have several. Like, I looked back at some posts when he was a puppy, and I used to play this little game, like, kind of mentally of the, you know, plucking.

Did you guys ever do that? The plucking, the petals, where it's like, he loves me, he loves me not. And I felt like, no. Oh, that was like a cop. We played the little dandelions, right? And so I felt like for years I was plucking the little petals, and it was always ending on, he loves me not. Like, what a terrible feeling. I mean, and I would have to really pay attention to any time that he showed me any attention or any.

Any connection at all. It was such a struggle. So the turning point for us was when I reduced my expectations. I didn't even realize I had so many expectations. And I started seeing him for who he actually was. He wasn't the bite sport dog that I purchased. He was very much chasing butterflies and his very own character. And I really had to step back and enjoy him for who he was.

And that allowed me to start building something. And now we're not allowed to have favorites, so I can't say that. But he's. He's pretty up there. He's a pretty special boy. So sometimes you do have to intentionally build it, and it really depends on the dog, because I'm fun, damn it. That's something I've always been really good at, is being curious and being playful, and most dogs really feed into that. And he just did it. And so that's. That's a brain twister when that happens to you.

Melissa Breau: Yeah, Denise.

Denise Fenzi: So I often say that some dogs are born wired for relationship. And I really. I historically had a lot of dogs that I would say were born wired for relationship. So they came in here staring at me, and that makes it super, super easy. Those dogs bring the relationship to you.

But realistically, not one dog I have in my house right now was born wired for a relationship. When I got Xen, he was a little bit older. He was three and a half months. And I did the same thing I've done with every single puppy. I took him to a place where we were going to go for walks. I took him off leash because there's nowhere to go, and I went for a walk because they always follow like little puppies.

But this one most certainly did not. He turned and he went the other way. And I was like, that's fine. I'll just get a little further and he'll realize he's alone. And it ended up being me who was running back because I realized, no, he was definitely going the other direction and not slowly either, and just really didn't care. So that's fine. I would say. My. The way I train, the way I interact with my dog sensitizes them.

And so at this point, he's. He's just quite adorable the way he has so much independence and capacity on his own, and yet he cares so much now, what I think. But he was not born that way. And then Brito's a terrier, so honestly, enough said. He's perfectly capable of taking care of himself and everybody else while we go along for the ride. But now he spends most of his day on my lap and nearby.

He still is pretty opinionated young man and old man, I guess. And then the new puppy is just sort of in a class by himself. But most certainly, he, unlike, at least, you know, Xen, was loved the first month of his life, or, you know, so it wasn't like he had no relationship with people. The border collie really didn't have any. Anything with anyone. So you're starting with.

It's not just about building the bond with you. It's actually about making people valuable in their lives. I've had dogs historically, though, that really literally came out of the womb looking for a person, staring at that person. They do all the work. They create the connection. And I think there are pros and cons to both, sort of both types initially, because I will say a lot of dogs that are born that way, I think it comes out of uncertainty and neediness.

And so they're looking around because they need a bond, not because they're choosing one. And I find that those dogs, over time, often are not the strong dogs. Whereas dogs that I have to work hard, I often find that they are really quite competent on their own. And I just happen to enjoy dogs that are strong in temperament and nature. But I also recognize that they don't come to the table doing the work. You have to put out the work, and it takes a bit of time, but I like the end result a lot.

Erin Lynes: So I think there's a bit of a combination of both things for some dogs, that there's a little bit of naturally developed bond, but there's some curating of the experiences that we share to try and build it, too. As a breeder, something that I'm often helping people with is integrating a puppy into their home and the nature of the type of puppies that I place, it's usually a family that already has dogs.

So part of the puzzle pieces are we're trying to fit a new dog into a situation where there's already established bonds and routines and relationships amongst the existing dogs and the humans. And navigating that can be tricky because one of the things a puppy has going for it is they're cute and they're lovable, and they suck a lot of your attention and time. But also they can be kind of aggravating to the existing dogs.

They can ruin your sleep. There's many challenges that come along. So there's all these positives that are like, I love you, little guy. I have big hopes and dreams and kind of hinting into some of those expectations that Crystal was talking about. That can potentially be a little bit of a hindrance to your relationship, too, if you're putting so many eggs in, like, a performance basket before you even know what the puppy is interested in.

But then you have to try and balance how do I serve my time so that I can build this new bond without straining the existing relationships. And part of how I look at curating that that new bond is trying to find ways to avoid conflict or resentments from building up either between the existing dogs and the new dog or between yourself and the new dog, because you recognize that they're taking a lot of your time, that they're kind of pushing boundaries and being aggravating.

And like, I have a very old dog in my house right now. She's 15 and a half. I just don't have any desire for her to be pushed around by a puppy or bumped or agitated. And if I had a dog that was doing that, I think I could build up a little bit of, like, ongoing resentments for them. So part of how I protect that relationship while I'm in this delicate stage is I want to use space and separation and management strategies so that I'm not constantly being annoyed or overbearing or kind of having to nag on my new puppy.

Oh, don't. Don't bug grandma. She doesn't like that. Or don't steal her toys or don't do this. You kind of have to plan ahead, be a little proactive, and create those situations for things to be able to blossom a bit peacefully. And that takes a bit of work. So I count that in the work bucket of building a relationship about how you have to go about planning for that sort of harmony.

Kim Palermo: So, for me, I think it depends a lot on, like, the time in my life when I get a dog. Like, my first dog that I got when I was in college, she was, like, my college graduation gift. I was young. I was, like, not quite sure what I was doing with my career, and I was kind of struggling, and that impacted our relationship.

It was probably when she was 2 that her and I really started to connect. At the same time, I think there's some dogs where it just naturally happens. And I've had the gift of being able to raise my collie Jane's litter and then my collie Sunday's litter. And, like, I delivered Jane and she, like, was days old and crawled onto my lap. Like, she stood out from everyone else.

And it was like, there was no way that dog wasn't coming home with me. And I can't even tell you what it was that built that connection, but, God, it was there. And I mean, it still is, and I think so that kind of allows you to see if that's naturally there from the get go. But I think with, like, any relationship, some of them we do have to work harder than others.

I definitely have struggled with some of my dogs, really connecting with them until I got to know them. I also noticed, especially with a lot of our, you know, here, my local business, we work with a lot of pet families, and if there's an expectation of, like, well, my previous dog was, like, this perfect dog, and they did all these things, and then they bring home a puppy, and the puppy is not going to be that perfect dog.

Right. It's an individual. And I see, like, Erin mentioned, like, the kind of the resentment buildup and stuff, like, because you're not. You're. You're dealing with a puppy, and you're not getting the dog that you, you know, had. And so I think it really depends on, like, where you are in your life, who the individual dog is and. And how it can go from there. And I love what Denise said about how some dogs, like, are looking for that bond.

And that's my miniature poodle. He's so obsessed with me. It's, like, insane. And he was. It was. I'm in New Hampshire. We drove down to Pennsylvania to the breeders to get him. And, like, 20 minutes into the ride home, he's whining in his crate, and I had a pillow on my lap. I'm like, oh, I'm just gonna put him on my lap. He curled up and was like, I have decided that you are the love of my life.

And that was it. And I do think that he's, like, a little insecure at times, and he really needs me to support him. And so it's like a different kind of bond than the one I have with Jane, because Jane would be like, you know, she's. She's fine on her own. She does not need me, but she wants me. So there's kind of, like, these different kind of relationships.

And then even my oldest Collie, we got him when he was 2 years old, and he was in a household with a lot of kids and never really experienced that bond with a person. And he. I don't get that from him. Like, I don't get that real desire to connect with us. I mean, he's perfectly happy living with us, but I don't connect with him the way I do with some of my other dogs.

So I think some just require more work than others. And I'm always going to put in the work. You know, to me, it's very important I have that bond. But then others just come extremely naturally for me or for the dog or for both of us.

Crystal Wing: I'm curious. Do you guys think it's okay to have favorites?

Erin Lynes: Yes. But you're not supposed to tell them.

Crystal Wing: Because this came up yesterday, even, and I just thought, why are we not allowed to have special bonds that are a little more deep with one than another? Like, is that not okay?

Denise Fenzi: Because we extrapolate to children, and then it becomes, your dog is your child. Are you allowed to have favorite children?

That's an interesting question. Are you allowed to feel what you feel? No. So I think that's. It also gets back to the idea that you should be controlling your emotions better than that. Right. You must be the logical, fair one. So that. That's such a misunderstanding of how. How. How our emotions actually work. I think.

Crystal Wing: That's kind of where I'm stuck, because I feel like so many people have so much guilt because they like one animal a little more than another, and I like them in different ways for different reasons. And I. I just think it's okay to have stronger feelings for one more than another. I just. I was curious if I'm alone on that boat or…

Erin Lynes: I don't think you're alone. And for me, I think if you put me in a room with one of my dogs, I'm like, you're my favorite. I love you. You snuggle. We're gonna play this game. And then I walk into a different room, and there's a different dog. And I'm like, you know what? God, you got the most Silky ears. You're so special and cute. And there's just.

The bond is different between each dog. And like, I just mentioned my favorite dog, Ralphie, because he's not in here and he can't hear me and his head won't get too big. But, like, there's different reasons. They might. You might think, feel that in that moment. And it might fluctuate when you have different dogs, but no two bonds are the same anyway, so you can't really. At least, I can't, like, really compare them. People ask, who's your favorite? And I'll give them an answer, but it's. It could be different the next day.

Denise Fenzi: I also like that idea that it's, like, based on what? Like, I have different relationships with each dog, and I appreciate them. They really couldn't be more different. That's the way I have right now. I will say I've had dogs in the past that I felt like they lived here.

I felt like I took good care of them. I felt I did right by them. But something just never really developed the way I would want it to. And I don't think an outsider could have told. I don't think it would be like, oh, she's not as good to that dog as the others. I don't think it was like that. But something never quite gelled in my heart.

And maybe it was when I got the dog, or maybe it was the things I was working on at that time, what I was doing or whatever. And other dogs, I think, are just. It's just easier to see that we have common interests right off the bat and that some of the things that that dog enjoys doing are high on my list at that time, at that period in time.

But I do regret a little bit that I haven't been able to develop a true bond with every dog I've had, which is different than not taking good care of them or not wanting them. It's. It's not the same. But I just think it's. It's maybe okay to admit that some dogs were maybe not the best match for your situation in the first place. There's a reason why we choose the breeds we choose, the temperaments we choose. And it's. I think it's okay to admit, kind of like a life partner, that there are reasons that you make certain choices, and that's. It's okay to say that.

Kim Palermo: Yeah, I agree. It's. It's. It's almost like. Like throughout your lifetime, you're going to become closer friends with some people. Than other people. And I will admit, and I don't mean to offend anyone here with retrievers, but I have learned that I am a herding dog person.

I love my Collies. I love them so, so much. My golden retriever, she's adorable, and she's sweet, and she's lovable. She's just not really my style. Like, I don't. You know, so it's like. And it's not that I don't love her. You know, she has very good home and. But, yeah, you just kind of. You end up. You have your preferences.

Erin Lynes: I don't think that's uncommon either, because, like, when I was growing up and little and surrounded by Labradors and Alaskan huskies, I was obsessed with border collies.

I don't know, I saw the right movie or something. I was like, I really just. All I want is a border collie. I want one so bad. They're so amazing. And I finally got one, and I was like, you know what? I actually enjoy training them, but no part of the living with them. So I'm not offended, Kim, that you're not a retriever person, because as much as I've grew up just wanting to love border collies, and I would probably like to borrow one every now and again for some training purposes, I just don't want to live with one.

Melissa Breau: Super fair. I think that's super interesting. I had a good friend recently asked me if I believed it's possible to have multiple best friends. It's very similar to the favorite child problem. It's like, how do you decide? And what are they good for? And different people or maybe meet different needs and. Yeah, very, very interesting way to think about it. The tagline for the conference is about Communication and Connection.

And we haven't really talked a whole lot. We've talked a lot about kind of the natural pieces of the bond, but maybe we haven't talked a whole lot about those two aspects. So I'd love to dive into. Do you see communication and connection as different? Are they the same thing? Where do they overlap? You know, I'd love to talk about that a little bit, Denise?

Denise Fenzi: So, of course, at the exact moment it's.

You asked me the question, my dogs decide that it's time to wrestle and play. So I've walked out of the room. And the thinking here. Well, you guys. Well, the audience can't see, but all I had to do was walk out, and they're like, wait, wait, where are you going? And so that. That gave me relative peace. To me, communication I can communicate with any dog if I know how to train, if I know what the dog's words are, if I know the body language that is appealing to that dog or scary.

Communication is just me understanding dogs well enough to potentially get my way. And I can understand their communication for the same reason. It's about whether or not I know dog behavior, a body language, interest, whatever, well enough to understand what they're saying to me. And so I don't even. I don't need to have any relationship at all with that dog. To me, connection gets down to what we've already talked about, which is a whole nother level, and it's got a lot more desire to get along.

So if I communicate to my dog, I don't want you to bark at the window, and my dog wants to bark at the window. That's me telling them what I want and somewhat disregarding their interest in that moment, which doesn't mean I'm not going to do it. Sometimes communication is that way. Connection is a whole nother matter because it really is about taking into consideration not just my needs and interests, not just the dog's needs and interests, but really all needs, all interests.

And let's throw society in for good measure, because I think that's important and family and all. So I think when you have a connection with a dog, you are much more on a kind of a cognitive level. You're much more aware of how the choices you might make at that time will influence how you guys feel about each other over the long haul, which is a little bit different than just, I need to get my way now, and so I'm going to do this, that or the other.

I don't. I don't have dogs to communicate with them, so I like communicating with them. I find dog behavior fascinating. I do know people who are exceptionally good dog trainers, and I'm not complaining, completely convinced they like dogs. So that sounds odd, but I think they are fascinated by dogs and dog behavior, which is. It's a different thing. I have both. I'm fascinated by dog behavior, but I also have a deep interest in the relationship I have with my dogs.

Like, I'm kind of amazed by what can exist between a different species. There's a book, some of you may have read it or to your kids or whatever, called the Golden Compass. And in this book you have these. I don't want to call it. You have your sort of your animal that's always with you, and there's a cord that ties you together. And if it gets cut it, actually, you'll die.

Like, it's so fundamentally important that you have this in your life. And I'm like, when I was reading the book to my son, he was like, that would be so amazing to have that. And I was just looking at the dogs, thinking, I do have that. So I. I already have that. We just don't think about how incredibly amazing it is that we have another species that's in our lives and that we relate to so deeply.

I mean, it really. The more I think about it, the more it amazes me every time I think about it. And it makes me a little sad that some people are kind of oblivious to what a dog can be. If you're not treating it like something you own and do things to and have expectations of, and you want it to mold to your life. It's like you've missed so much of what it is to live with another species who chooses you in their home. So communication, anybody can do it, who has training and skills. Connection is. I think anybody can develop it if they actually really want to. But it's just really night and day.

Erin Lynes: So, yes to all of that. I was thinking about Denise when you were talking about connection as that awareness. Yesterday, I was walking through the forest with one of my labs, Venom, and little beagle creature Leroy, and I was sort of thinking about the upcoming conference and connections and bonds and stuff, and I'm like, isn't it kind of cool that this little beagle guy can run around and he's smelling all the creatures in the forest?

And, oh, look, Venom went over there to smell something, and he was completely doing his own thing. And all of a sudden, he's just casually following her over to where she was. And then I got interested. Something, and I changed my direction. I didn't have to say anything. And Venom follows me, and Leroy Beagle follows her. And the. What I was struck by is just the connection that we have, that awareness we have of each other, even when we're not.

I'm not talking to them. They're not summoning me over. We're just sharing those. Those moments. And there it's. It's kind of like an emotional thing, right? Because you're aware of what the others are doing, even when you're not consciously saying, like, I'm gonna watch that dog and see what he's up to. And they're not probably saying, like, I have to keep an eye on that human at all times.

It's just because we're doing that thing together and we we have that bond already. Communication can probably add to that connection. Like if I need to direct them or they bark because there's a bear or something. We can add to the layers of connection that we've already established by having clear communication. And me being able to read their body language is definitely helpful to our connection. And them naturally caring where I'm going and what I'm doing is helpful in that way too.

But they are kind of separate things in that regards. Like you could, if you've ever been in a training class as the instructor or as a student and you've seen how a dog does better with somebody who's a better communicator, even if they don't have that connection like that, that adds to something, even though it's not really building it at the emotional level. So it's, it's really an interesting thing to think about.

Denise Fenzi: Something you said about the, you know, walking with your dogs made me think about with, with the border collie I have, who came with some pretty significant challenges. I knew that he was going to be a good working dog way before I knew if he would ever care about me. And the day I knew was when, oh, gosh, now I'm feeling teary. But I was out walking. And I always have to go through massive conniptions to get him back at the end because he doesn't want to come in.

And it was when I said, hey, let's go. And I realized that I wasn't going to have to do that. He just stopped heading for the gate, which is what he always tries to do to get away. And he just trotted back in. It was such a low key. I'm part of the group. You said, we're going in now, we're going in now moment. And I, my other dogs, I don't have to work on that because they come so young.

It's so easy. And so to see him, like I showed up, like he looked at me, like I showed up on the radar. And it wasn't a quid pro quo negotiation, which is how we were getting through life till that moment. Everything was about, I know what you want. I control those resources and I can make, I can make it work for both of us. And then it became, it's not about what you want, it's not about what I have.

I don't have those things right now. I'm not going to give you those things, and you know it. And it doesn't matter. You, you're choosing me, you're choosing to be with me. You're choosing to be with the group and doing the thing. And it was. That's when I said, we're going to be okay. And he's going to be more than just a dog who can do the things, the herding, the obedience.

He's going to be a companion, a connected friend who is able to sort of see beyond his own interests. And that was a big deal because I've never seen a dog so uninterested in what people, not just me, people were doing. It was just, what do I want to do? How do I want to do it? It's kind of like the toddler who's just heading off in their own direction all the time.

And the parent follows them around and keeps them out of trouble and redirects. And until they get scared, they don't even look at their parent. Right. They're just kind of in that do my own thing. And. And then to see that was. Was a really big deal.

Kim Palermo: I agree with what Denise and Erin said. I think one thing that's important to keep in mind is that good communication, like Erin said, is going to help your connection, and bad communication will impact your connection as well.

You know, I see that a lot in, in, like, the pet dog classes. I was observing a few weeks ago. I was at the. The vets with my, my mini poodle Walt, and I was hanging out in the waiting room for quite a while. So, you know, I'm just. I can't help just like, observing and geeking out, watching everything. And there were these, these two people with their dogs, right?

And. And they're both communicating with their dogs, right? They've got the collar and leash on. They're telling them that they have to, you know, stay in the general area and, you know, not pull on the leash and, and those things. And one of them, it was like, this younger guy, and he's like, sitting back in his chair. He's got, like, his dog, this big dog, like, leaning against him and he's got his arm around him.

And, you know, once in a while the dog looks up and smiles at him and he's like, kind of petting him and chatting with people, and you could just see the connection there, right? And then, you know, across the hall there, there's this woman, and she's just, like, completely distracted, and her, her poor dog is, like, screaming for help, you know, kind of. Not literally screaming, but, you know, kind of jumping, jumping up at her and acting all nervous and she's totally disconnected with this dog.

And even though the dog is, like, staying there and hanging out and doing what she wants, the communication was there with both. But the connection, it was so clear who had the connection. That's all

Crystal Wing: All I can think about here is my 6C class, because this is what it's completely about. So I'm so passionate about this. I get excited. I'm thinking about what Erin and Kim said about that clarity and communication.

It's going to build the confidence, and that's going to help build that connection. But the first thing we have to have is that compassion. And I think that's the piece that Denise was kind of speaking to. Even saying how Tye was able to see beyond his own interests. That's a lot of what we have to bring to it, is we bring that compassion in to see beyond our own interests and really see that being in front of us, and that's how that true connection starts to happen.

I loved Erin's example of the awareness. I was thinking about being out on a search with Radish. Some of the handlers are out there, and they have to yell and holler and use their collars to get their. Their dogs to stop going where they're going or change direction or come back. And literally, I always wonder, like, how did she even see that? All I do is just change my direction slightly, and she will completely change the path that she's going and come the direction I want.

I didn't have to say a word. And that is the connection that I love to build. That's what I try so hard to show other people, that you can use your body and you can use that invisible line. You know, I always feel like there's this invisible line happening between us. And I use it in seminars where I'll point just randomly, I'll be instructing, and then I'll just point at something or I'll just stop and look at something, and everybody will turn and look, you know, and it's that same idea, because we are all connected and we're all kind of seeing what each other is doing.

We're reading off each other, and our dogs are doing that all the time. So that's. I had a little sidetrack, too. I don't know if this relates. There was a conversation yesterday on Facebook and someone said about they didn't agree with dogs doing sports because the dogs should not be treated as sports equipment. And I couldn't stay out of it. I'm like, how about another perspective? What if we look at this as I am a teammate and my dog is part of my team, and we are not looking at my dog as equipment.

And holy cow, if you've ever she. And then she said, tennis, anybody? And I was like, okay, let's talk pairs tennis. You really have to be connected with your partner, with your teammate, and when you have that connection, your. Your game gets better. And then imagine you get to go home with that teammate and you get to talk about the game you just played, and then you get to live with that being like, you cannot get any closer relationship than that.

So I don't know if that's off task too much, but it just kept kind of playing back in my mind. You made me think of something Crystal. So I had my last dog sledding expedition of the year, I believe on Monday, because our weather is now spring. And it was. I think sometimes people think when you're. When you're dog sledding, it's just the dogs running for the sake of running.

And, you know, they've got this innate desire to burn calories and express their physicality that way. But it's really. It's not. It's so much more than that. It's this. It is this total team thing. So I've got my dogs, and we're quietly going through the wilderness, and it's just so peaceful. And I'm thinking, oh, it's so sad. This is the last time we get to do this this year.

And then all of a sudden, one of my dogs puts his nose down and he just starts hauling ass. Like, he just turbo boosted. Oh, my goodness. Like, what are you doing? Cool Jam. And then the dog in front of him, she starts looking into the woods. She's running, but she's turning sideways. And I'm like, oh, my goodness, there's got to be a critter out there. And they just had this moment of speed and joy and, like, sort of distraction, but the whole team all at once felt it, and it was so cool.

The moment eventually passed and we went back to our little trick trotting and quiet moment. But, like, you can't. I don't know how you could even replicate something like that if there wasn't that connection between you and your teammates. It's so special. It was slightly terrifying because I didn't know what was going to come out of the woods and eat us, but the dogs were aware of it.

I was aware what they were aware of. And when I think about sports with dogs, I think about moments like That I don't think about the ribbons and the titles and stuff. I think, like, we experienced that all together, and it was fun and interesting and scary and cool. And, like, when they think about their day, I think they think about moments like that.

Crystal Wing: Oh, yeah, I've had a cool experience recently. Someone else at dog club is training my dog. And so when you talk about communication and connection, it's fascinating because she knows the words, so she knows all my marker words. She knows everything. But my dog will not work the same for her as he does for me. And then trying to watch someone else and then tell them why I saw what I saw and how I knew that about my dog, that is really fascinating.

So that's something that I like to challenge people to do. So now in clubs, we're doing that, so we're letting other people work our dogs, and it helps us see our dog in a whole new way. So that could be a way also to kind of explore that difference between communication and connection.

Melissa Breau: Super interesting. Obviously, there are lots of different factors, Right. That can influence a bond in a given moment.

So I want to. I want to talk about some of that stuff. We've mentioned age already, but, you know, how does your dog's age tend to inter impact your bond at that particular point? What differences do you maybe see when you're at home with them versus when you're out in public? What differences do you see maybe if you're working on something that's new to them versus something that's kind of old hat?

What other factors do you see kind of make that bond fluctuate within a given period of time? Erin, you want to start us off on this one?

Erin Lynes: Sure. I'm going to tackle the age part of that question because I think I already alluded to this, but old dogs are the best dogs. You will not convince me otherwise. It is so easy to have a very deep, convincing connection and bond with your best friend that you've shared a million years with.

And they're so agreeable. And even if they have, like, medical stuff going on, you're just like, you are cool. You know me, I know you. We are great together. We just. Our thoughts relay. We don't have to have a. Like, Shelby is mostly deaf. We doesn't matter. We can still communicate. We know she knows what I'm doing. I know what she's doing. And then you have, like, your adolescent dogs and you're like, listen, we have this.

This. This is where the work comes in. We got to work on it. Because I need to survive this. You need to survive this. And there's. If you. If you set yourself up in a positive state of mind, I think you can look for the little connections that are growing in leaps and bounds within those more difficult time periods. With puppies, too, right? There's. Like I mentioned before, it's easy to love them because they're cute and little and squishy, but you don't get any sleep and they bite your hands and they wreck all your nice stuff and they poop on your carpet.

And there's many challenges. But you. If you keep the positive state of mind and you're like, oh, look at, like, he came to the door with me and he rang the bell and we had this amazing adventure together, and you're focusing on that part, you can use those more difficult age ranges as pretty big stepping stones to building your connection. You just have to be watching for it and. And aiming for it a little bit.

Melissa Breau: I like that thought, Kim?

Kim Palermo: Yeah, I see. So I notice on social media, it's like everyone who gets a puppy, it's like the perfect puppy at first, right? Like, everyone's, this is the perfect puppy. I love my puppy so much. It's so perfect. I'm, like, so sick of watching all these perfect puppies because I know they're going to turn into adolescents and you're not going to think that they're perfect.

II mean, I love a puppy just as much as anyone else. I adore puppies. My favorite time to really build a bond with my dog is during adolescence. I love the challenge. I love. It's like you're really getting to know them then and who they are and what works for them. And, you know, I think a lot of people see it as, like, they're, you know, misbehaving, or they're becoming more difficult, or they're, you know, no longer listening to you.

But I just see it as like, okay, what is challenging for my dog right now and how can I support them? And by looking at it that way, I'm just building our bond. And then if I have the foundation of a really nice bond from puppyhood, that's just gonna help me even more. So I love that part of their lives. And then. And then, of course, like, 4, 5, 6 years old, when they're like, you know, just like what you always imagined they would become, of course, that's wonderful, too, for your bond.

And then after that, like Erin said, when they go into senior, you know, becoming seniors, it just. Just, it keeps growing from there. But. But I think adolescence is the time we should really embrace. And I mean, as far as other times, you know, that impact my bond with my dogs. And. And you mentioned, you know, at home versus in public. I think my bond essentially stays the same.

But I think, like, when I think of Jane in particular, like, she's probably my most challenging dog. She's got some big feelings out in the world. I almost. I almost feel like. Like we're sisters when we go out in the world, when she, like, does something to embarrass me or whatever. Like, I was. I was speaking for a conference, and I had her as a demo dog, and I look up, and she just dives into my treat pouch and knocks treats all over the place, and I'm just like.

And. And she does that. I know she does that. I'm just like, oh, Jane, why now? Like, she's so. It's like, we still have that bond, but maybe it's a little different. So, yeah, I guess it can kind of change depending on your. On your. Your situation and everything. But I think the fact that I have a good bond with her, I can just laugh that off and not actually get upset with her for embarrassing me in front of a lot of people.

Melissa Breau: Fair enough. Crystal?

Crystal Wing: I'm kind of thinking about it. I never thought about it this way, but I think about it as the puppy stage for me is when my trainer geek side comes out. I just want to take advantage of that little. A dry sponge. It's just soaking so much in. And then I feel like adolescence. And I'll go with Kim on that one. And maybe it's because I taught high school art for 23 years.

So I like adolescence. I like that punishment. If you can survive a classroom full of that many high school kids, teenagers, like, you can do anything. I really believe that. And so I love the challenging stage of adolescence because that's when the bond happens. I kind of feel like at puppy stage, that's when I'm like, trainer geek. And then adolescence is when the bonding geek comes in, and then you have that sweet spot where, you know, you have the Quinn moment where you can just look at each other and just know what you're thinking.

You have that connection. You've been together so long, and then you get. And this is only if you're so lucky to have this, and I wish this for everybody. But when you get to that stage where they are so old that it kind of reverses where, like, Quinn took care of me for all those years, and then I had the pleasure of taking care of him. And there will nothing be that can be as deep as that bond.

So all the sports we did, all the lives we lived, all the states we traveled to and the places we've gone, I still think that was the, the most precious time was there being able to take care of him again. And it was just being able to give him that gift back. Like, I get choked up thinking about it. And then when you talked about home versus public, I think a lot of that comes to the dog's personality.

But I, I think too, it's the training. I had Radish out day one in all the public spaces. We did all the training in all the places. And I see her as being so much more robust in being able to do things everywhere. And so because of that, it makes, I'll say that connection is easier because she's already used to it. With Checkmate, you know, he's very. Everything that moves is a problem.

And so space is hard for us, and it becomes a constant strain against our connection because when he wants to go do all the things. But again, that's, that's a temperament. That's a dog thing. And so that does come to a lot of training. Training becomes really crucial to help that bond stay alive, I'll say. So that's, that's something else I want to throw out there. That training is important to kind of keep us connected.

Melissa Breau: Denise?

Denise Fenzi: So, for sure, stages of life are a big part of it. But the thing that's standing out for me right now is the amount I build my feelings for my dog. And hopefully my dog builds their feelings for me around competition dog sports because it's very concentrated time with one dog. It's something that is, I believe, the highlight of our day. If it's not, then I think some soul searching needs to take place.

And especially the way I choose to train it is it really requires buy in on the dog's part because that's just part of how I do it. I don't. I think that probably pushes things faster than anything else. I mean, just the soaking time of being together. I work from home, so the dogs and I are together for. It's not unusual to be together 24 hours a day, but that 20 or 30 minutes that I spend with each dog, really, it's just you and me, and I'm giving you everything.

I have 100% of my attention and. And at that time, my needs are not relevant. Now we're in the house loose, my needs are relevant. So you barking at the windows, running around, whatever it is, those things start to be about, hey, what about me? Hey, what about you? Hey, what about family? But when I'm training, it really is very much 100%, what do you need right now?

And I think those that training for sport, for any sport whatsoever, that requires that sort of conscious attention and, you know, thinking in advance about, where are we going to go today, how are we going to do it? And then the attention afterwards, sort of, let's call it the afterglow of training, where I'm really thinking about, wow, hopefully, hopefully, wow, that went well. What's next? For me, that creates a huge amount of connection with my dogs, and I think they reflect that back because they take so much from that time as well.

So really a huge part. And then when it's over and the dog is retired, there's a lot of sort of looking back on that shared history, and I think that sort of keeps that piece alive, even though we do think completely different things at that point in our lives. I think that's. That's such a great point that we kind of have, like, we've missed through this conversation, is the value of dog sports, on our bond with our dogs.

Kim Palermo: And for me personally, one thing that's been lacking recently is I've just. I've been so busy that I haven't been able to engage in training and sports as much as I used to. And that used to be such a huge part of my relationship with my dogs. That said, I do still do it sometimes. And just this past weekend, I took my mini poodle, I guess, out of retirement.

He has an aggressive form of cancer, but is somehow beating the odds. And he's still with me. And so I entered him into an Obedience trial and we have not done, like, anything in a long time. And gosh, he just rocked it. And what made him. He's always enjoyed being in the ring and he's always enjoyed working with me and, like, food reinforcement, none of that was ever all that important to him.

And it was such a delight to be able to go in the ring with him and share that experience. And he's so cute. Cause I see out of the corner of my eye, like, all of a sudden he, like, opens his mouth and he has this little smile when he's, like, trotting next to me. And it's. I think sports have always been a huge part of my relationship with my dogs and my. My bond with my dogs. And. And it's. It's really a beneficial part of our sharing our lives.

Crystal: And I'm going to fangirl and Kim for a second. I am in a weird place in life where I have two dogs that are just not able to do the things anymore. And I started taking her ACE Free Work class, and it has absolutely changed my relationship, especially with UConn. So those are the things that also affect that bond.

So when you do have that point where maybe you have grief over the things you thought you were going to do in your sports career, and then what do you do now, you know, and this has been such a gift to fill that space for me. And so I also am so excited about how I will use this in the future with my young dogs to really get to know them better faster. So I can't recommend enough. Everybody has to take Free Work. I'm just saying it. So there you go.

Melissa Breau: So I want to push things in a slightly different direction for a minute. Most of the time, you know, and most of the conversation has been about strengthening our relationship with our dogs and kind of building that bond. But sometimes in life, things just aren't perfect. Right. So how do you handle it when something goes wrong, when the bond is damaged?

Right. Or when something unpleasant like maybe a necessary medical situation comes up, it can't be avoided? How do you recoup that? How do you rebuild that connection? How do you handle it in the moment? Kim?

Kim Palermo: Oh, it's the worst. Feeling so much guilt. For me, it's the hardest part of dog ownership is, like, when I have to put them through an experience they don't really care for. I think that's kind of just.

It's so, you know, when you. When we teach the name game in the pet dog classes, right? So it's like, you say the puppy's name, you give them a treat, say their name, give them a treat. And the whole idea is, like, you're building this savings account of, you know, your name means lots of good things. And I think of my bond with my dog, my connection, all the things I do with them, as, you know, putting that money into the savings account so that when I do have a withdrawal, when I have to bring them to the vets or, you know, I've got five dogs even, like, doing their nails.

Like, it's. It's. It's not pleasant for everyone in the way I would like it to be, you know, we're not all crying over it, but they don't love it. And so I just need to make sure that I'm putting enough into that savings account to then handle those withdrawals that happen. And it's interesting, this question really made me think because this. So this past weekend I was at a specialty and my nine year old niece Autumn is doing juniors with my Collie Jane.

And it's adorable because Autumn and Jane have built this like amazing relationship and collies naturally, very much like children. I feel guilty that I don't have kids because my collies want them. But, but they have this relationship where like, like they cuddle together. And I'm like, Jane doesn't really cuddle with me. But it's. Autumn has only been positive experiences for her, right? There really hasn't been a withdrawal and whereas with me there have been.

And then my sister shows up at the show. Autumn's mom, right? And it's like I see the difference between Autumn's relationship with me, like the fun aunt, right, who brings her to dog shows versus her mom who, you know, is her mom and sometimes has to, you know, create boundaries and such. So I think we're gonna have that relationship with our dogs and we just have to make sure that we're working so much on that bond that when those things happen, it, it doesn't completely break things and we can kind of just pick up the pieces and, and go from there.

Crystal Wing: relationships are always about repair and recovery. I screw up all the time. I just, I'm human. And so I think compassion is the first piece to have compassion for myself that says you're gonna mess up and don't hold it against yourself. I think that's so important to this because things are going to go wrong. And I think how we respond afterwards when those things go wrong is the most important.

And so I think if we have a plan, so if you have a medical thing, you already have a plan in place. Like this is how I want to feel about this. This is how I'm gon there for my dog. I'm going to show them my compassion. I'm also going to show them that I'm going to help you feel safe again. And I always kind of ask my dog or I think about with my dog, what are they learning about me in this moment?

And I think that always helps me be a better person because I want to show up for them. And so am I listening to what they're actually telling me? Am I actually slowing down and trying to rebuild that confidence we might have lost? And I also know that it's not forever. I just have this impermanence feeling about everything now that it's just this is not forever. We can change this.

If I built this thing, I can build this other thing. And so that's the confidence in myself to know that I can do that, but also confidence in my learner and my dog that they can do this too. We can do hard things.

Melissa Breau: Damn it. I love that line, Denise?

Denise Fenzi: So I wonder if a way to think about this, to make it a little bit. I don't know if positive is the word I want, but part of resilience is going through ups and downs, and a dog cannot be resilient in life.

Or frankly, can a dog really even be happy if they don't have. You need to know degrees of unhappy to know happy. That's, you know, you need to know degrees of discomfort to know comfort. Do I think the dog sits around going, gee, I'm so grateful I'm not in pain? No, I don't. But I do think that part of the normal resilience recovery is about things happening and the dog understanding.

Look, I'm trying to make this as good for you as you can. I am. And I think they do know that. I think your dog learns eventually that when I go to the vet and I say, this is a no choice moment, I'm gonna hold you, and this is how it's gonna be, I kind of feel like my dog has a look at me with a. I just want you to know I don't like it.

Xen is the dog who's had a whole lot of vet care lately, and he is never going to silently stand there and take that. He is going to make sure everybody in the room can hear him and that he's just. He's mad. You're gonna know it, but he doesn't do a thing. Like, my hands are on him, and it's symbolic. And he could absolutely wreck havoc if he wanted to.

He doesn't. He gets it. I don't like the things that are being done, but you're here, and I'm always there. He never goes out of my sight, and he just accepts it. And I almost wonder if when we leave the vet, if we have a better connection, because there's sort of a sense of, yeah, sometimes life has misfortune, but I'm there with you through it, and you do survive it, and it's never more than you can handle.

Or I would do it anesthetized. I mean, I wouldn't put my dog through truly miserable experiences. And I. I don't feel like there's harm. The exception would be when Brito was young, he was panicked to a new level about nail trims. And I don't know what exactly happened before I got him him, but he, he came a little bit older and it was, it was bad. It was three people bad.

And what I noticed is that after a nail trim day he would literally avoid everybody in the house for the rest of the day. So for whatever reason, he took it much, much more seriously than other dogs that I've also had to do nails who didn't want their nails done, who got over it. You know, they just. And I wouldn't say he's a low resilience dog, but something about that particular activity was very hard on him.

And I spent a lot of time doing cooperative nail care. It took a month. I spent every single day working on it. And now I will, he will never love having a nails done, but I can do it by myself and it's not a big deal anymore. And I think that's part of, we grew together. I took the time to do training because clearly it was a big thing for him. So I don't know, I, I guess I, I accept it just more as life is what life is.

Erin Lynes: I was kind of thinking about it along the same lines and knowing that there's, there's almost certainly going to be these moments in life where we have to do these unpleasant things, kind of planning and preparing for them, not just from the element of I can make certain events like nail trimming or whatever better with training, but also I can be really clear about when these moments are going to happen in day to day life.

And okay, this is the example I always use. But if your dogs ever eat grass and then they go to take a poop and they've got that little bit of dangly poop. This is a training moment, friends, where I take advantage of those moments and I'll say something like, hang on, I'll help you. And then you get your little glove out and you help them with that situation and the temporary embarrassment that they feel or the discomfort is overwhelmed by relief in the end.

And they're like, you helped me. Thank you. I try to capture little moments like that on the day to day. Not that there's grassy moments every single day, but when they happen, I want to, I want to take advantage of those because they translate later to things like, listen, you've got a torn nail and we've got to trim it off. It's just going to be a second. I'm going to help you.

I can use that language and that context and when it's over. It's over. I don't keep nagging at it. I'm not going to keep picking up your. Your nails or your grass situation or whatever. They know that there's a clear beginning and a clear end and that I'm part of the process that helps things get better. And in that way, I, I don't think my dogs exhibit resentment for me in those situations.

I think they think I'm there because I'm part of the helping process. And I, I feel like in a way that does help our connection actually grow. Like, I'm not afraid to go to the vet even when terrible things are, you know, you worried about what, what the diagnosis might be or what the procedure might be? I don't to want worry about that. I just focus on, like, how can I make this a situation where my, my dog is clear about what's happening and then when it's over, it's over and they know it's over and we all go get an ice cream cone.

So part of, part of, for me, dog ownership or dog training is knowing that things like that are inevitable and looking for tiny, little easy ways that you can introduce that concept to your dog so that when the big stuff happens, it's not. It doesn't feel as big to either one of you.

Crystal Wing: I love that, Erin, you're just making me realize that if my dogs have a thorn in their paw or something, they hobble over to me.

And it didn't occur to me that they absolutely recognize that I'm going to make that better. Yeah, those cool little moments like, yeah, I'd rather they didn't have a thorn in their paw or whatever, but you're part of the cure. So I think those, they're pretty smart. They know when we're helping them in the long run. And Denise brought up resilience. And, you know, I totally believe that sometimes those moments that we're having these struggles are actually absolutely deepening our bond because they are learning that we're going to support them.

And so I'm on Team Erin for that too. I see it all the time. What I get concerned about is that when people hear something like that, they're like, oh, well, if it's going to be a stronger thing than if they struggle and then we help them through it, why not just train that way? And that's kind of a popular conversation on the webs right now. Dude, we screw up enough.

We don't have to set anything up intentionally to have to help them recover. That's that resilient piece that's so important. We screw up enough just having life, and Denise talks about that all the time, and I just felt like that was an important little thing to kind of add into that resilience topic.

Erin Lynes: I totally agree. And that's just to reiterate, like, that's where I'm looking for moments in life where it's naturally happening, that I can be part of the solution, because I'm not going out of my way to create stress or pain or discomfort so that it can be a training moment.

It's there, dude. I've got Labradors. They are bouncing off the walls and thorns and grass, and all the things are happening on a daily basis there. Probably part of that is a consideration of what type of dogs we're choosing to like. I am drawn to dogs who are going to be naturally, probably more resilient and more tolerant of stress and stuff than maybe some other dogs. So maybe it's not. Maybe I'm not, like, the right person to talk about that from more delicate dog's perspective either, but that is totally a consideration.

Kim Palermo: Well, from a more delicate dog perspective, I can't even tell you how many broken collie legs I have mended by rubbing and kissing, you know, because they'll come over to me limping. But it is the exact same thing. Okay, it might not be grass, you know, hanging out of their bum, but in their opinion, it's a very big deal.

And I do make sure that I'm the one to help them. And that then turns into, like, you know, if they do cut a nail or a snowball, like, the snowball's in their pads, like, they will stop and hold their feet, and I'll pick them out for them, and then they'll trot along. So, yeah, it's all relative.

Melissa Breau: We've talked about a lot of different factors here, but what other factors can you think of or maybe have we not thought to chat about that can really have an impact on our bonds with our dogs? Crystal?

Crystal Wing: I think we've mentioned it, but I have to make sure that we really hit on it. And that's that emotional state of both our dog and us were both important in this. And so recognizing their emotions is going to help us with all manners of bond and training. But we also have to be real about ourselves. So sometimes I will choose not to train because I know that I'm not in the right headspace to do it, and I would rather not train than do something really stupid.

And then we talked about the expectations that I had with UConn in the very beginning of this. And I think the clarity of your expectations sometimes I think the. The most intentional thing we can do is to adjust ourselves. So I think it just. It takes a lot of self awareness to do a good job. So it's, yes, a lot of paying attention to them, but it's also paying attention to us.

And then my favorite topic is play. I think that's a huge factor as to how we can build the bond with our dog. Really listening to them, how they like to play. It's so cool watching all these different handlers figure out that communication skill of, oh, my dog likes to chase, or my dog likes to bite things, or my dog likes to thrash things. And they just never knew that before.

And that can be such a gift of communication with your dog that just. I think that's one of the most important, powerful pieces we have. And then one last thing I was thinking was about that safety piece. We talked about that a little earlier, I think, but I think just whether the dog feels safe and whether you feel safe too, and both are understood.

Denise Fenzi: So two things you said that kind of stood out for me because I'm in the midst of it.

One is the safety. It's really, really important that your dog recognizes that somebody's paying attention. And, I mean, that's a huge part of my talk, but I'll get to that later. But it matters that your dog believes you're an anchor and that you provide safety. And the second one that I think is equally important is that your dog recognizes that you bring joy and that you recognize what causes them to feel joy, because life lived in the middle is just not that interesting.

So we can look for opportunities to have punctuation in life. And that for my dogs, would be training time, or in some cases, just trying to figure out what. What they care about. And I love to see that. Find what brings your dog joy in life and make yourself an anchor so your dog understands that you represent safety.

Erin Lynes: Something that I think we haven't really mentioned yet is like, finding ways for our dogs to actually get to be dogs, because we're focused on building their connection with us, but they also have to actually get to be themselves.

So when do they get to move their bodies? How do they get to just. Just sniff around and do, like, low pressure, no pressure things? The more my dogs get to dog, the more highly they think of me without any other changes involved. We just are making sure their needs are met, they're more comfortable in their own skin. They're just happier and more relaxed in general. So that is something I would consider if you're.

If you're finding like the bond or the connection is hard to build or it's struggling a little bit. Like, see if increasing the amount of dogginess that your dog gets to experience has a positive effect on that.

Melissa Breau: I like that, Kim?

Kim Palermo: I like what Crystal said about kind of like focusing on ourselves as well as our dogs. I mean, I teach Take A Breath. So that's, you know, my dog taking a deep breath, but the cue is me taking a deep breath.

And I found that to be so beneficial for both myself, my dog, and we were like co-regulating. And I really think like sitting there together and like taking deep breaths is like, it feels so bonding and it feels like it's building such a connection. I think also, and this is kind of goes along with what everyone else was saying, like creating, you know, understanding what your dog's preferences are.

And I had a vet many years ago teach me about a happiness protocol, which is like essentially using your dog's happiness to help them stay healthy and looking specifically for what that is for your dog and not make assumptions. What I love so much about ACE Free Work is that we do get to just. Just sit back and observe and watch our dog's preferences and learn them. Because often we, we make assumptions that it's one thing when it's actually another and just giving our dogs those moments.

I like my mini poodle. He loves to just like, if I hold like a stock of celery, he just like tears at it and like, it's super boring for me. Except for actually I thoroughly, I take that back. I thoroughly enjoy watching him. Like, it's so nice to see him enjoy it so much. But it's also, you know, I'm just sitting on the ground holding some celery, but it makes him so happy.

So it's like I just try to go out of my way once in a while to like let him destroy some celery. And I'm part of it, you know, so finding those little things that, like, if I gave that to my colleagues, they'd be like, what the heck are you doing? This is stupid. So it's like finding what your dog's individual preferences are and then allowing them to enjoy those and with you, if possible.

Back when I was working two jobs, I didn't have a ton of time. And so what I would do is I would guarantee every dog 10 minutes of just that dog and me doing whatever it was, they loved every day. And I know that 10 minutes isn't a lot, but it's all that I could give at the time. And that's such a powerful thing of really sitting there and going, what do you actually love and what do you love today?

And how do you ask that question and how do they answer it? And so that's something that, that I think everyone could probably consider. And how much time can you dedicate to each of your dogs, how many ever you have, and think about that for each day. So I want to get back to the conference here for a moment and just have you each share a little bit on what you'll be talking about during the conference, kind of what your presentation is centered around.

Denise Fenzi: So my topic is leadership in the dog world. Right now, for some reason that word has a very negative connotation. I have some clues about where that comes from. But regardless, I think that's unfortunate because leadership, when we think about people who are leaders and how they interact with others, I think it is the clearest word that we have access to to demonstrate something that's important to me, which is the recognition that one of us in any given moment is probably going to be directing what's going to happen next.

And I think it is really, really important that people learn to step up and be leaders under circumstances that require it. I think it makes, makes everybody a lot happier. I one example I give is if there was an emergency and a house was on fire and burning down and there's kids in there, adults without exception, an adult will step up and start telling people what to do with a very specific tone and insist it's not the time to say, well, you know, when you're ready and on a more emotional level.

So people like, well, of course that's a physical safety thing. But consider this. If you see a car accident and it's a bad one and there's blood and there are human beings screaming, suffering, bloody parts missing, would you let your children watch that? So you're standing there on the side of the road, would you let your three year old watch? Obviously not. You would turn them away. You would find a way to make sure they did not see that because there's emotional harm and damage.

And I think with our dogs we are slow to recognize the importance of stepping up, up earlier, even if it means physically removing them from the circumstance. Just because your 3 year old wants to watch. That's not the time to have a conversation about, I'm going to take your hand. No, you pick them up and you move them. And I think with our dogs, we, in our enthusiasm for giving them choice, in our enthusiasm for not physically manipulating their bodies, we sometimes just make very poor choices.

And I, I present a framework about how to think about this so that you can provide choice within structure, but recognizing that somebody really needs to be making the good decisions here. And I think over time that creates a circumstance where your dog learns to look to you when they're unsure. Because you have a history of providing good information for them, you serve them well. And so that is what my presentation is on. And it's one that I really, really enjoy teaching about.

Erin Lynes: I'm teaching about belonging. So I'm talking about how to integrate a new dog when you have existing dogs in the household. So how do you manage your time? How do you structure things so that you can build a bond with your new puppy or dog while also maintaining your connections with your older dogs? And how do you help, help have the best long term odds of harmony between the new dog and the existing dog?

So talking about building their bonds as well. And I think one of the things that I hope to emphasize to those who are checking out this presentation is that the long game matters more than the short game. So like when I bring a new puppy into my household or bring a new adult dog into my household, I will sacrifice immediate interactions a little bit, maybe more separation, maybe a little more caution, so that there's a better chance of having long term harmony, making sure people get along for years and years to go to go along.

And I'm gonna give some tips on how you can make that happen.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. Crystal?

Crystal Wing: I am all about joy. And we're gonna look at some of the major functional breed groupings and explore kind of what they're historically built to do and what that might mean for trying to figure out how to reinforce and how to play and how to connect. I'll talk about predatory motor patterns and the different, you know, styles of dogs, like scent driven or cooperative types or independent types, and hopefully you'll get a lot of practical ideas.

And I like the idea of starting with what the books say and then actually paying attention to whether your dog agrees with what the book says. So I'll give you some small experimentation you can play with and kind of notice when they're enthusiastic and when it's waning and really let your dog show you what feels good to them. So it's about finding a clear starting point and then kind of building from there to see what your dog actually Enjoys because it's not about proving if your dog fits that category that they're supposed to be in, but actually understanding what they enjoy and build from there.

Kim Palermo: I can't wait now for this conference because that all sounds awesome. I will be talking about my opt out stations for this presentation and the idea of this is using training to better understand your dog, allowing them to communicate with you so that you can create that bond through training. I learned a lot through my last puppy Sunday because she wasn't the normal workaholic that I'm very accustomed to.

Quite the opposite. And now I have a great little worker because I allowed her to communicate with me when I was confusing, when she wasn't sure what to do through opt out stations. And if you do have a workaholic, it turns out it also works out for them really well too because it allows them to take time to process what they're learning. So I'm really excited to finally present about them.

Melissa Breau: Anybody have any final thoughts or key points they kind of want to leave folks with?

Crystal Wing: I just wanted to say that recently in the FDSA alumni group, there were a few different people who had questions about struggling to bond with their dog, finding that they had made it through puppyhood. They were into adolescence or beyond, and they still didn't feel like they had that connection. Was it normal?

Was it. Did they miss the boat? Does this mean it? They're never gonna bond? And I just wanted to say that sometimes bonds take much longer to develop than others. Some are like Kim mentioned with her puppy that crawled up on her lap. You just feel it in your bones right away. And other times it's going to happen much later. And that's. There's a huge whole range of normal.

If you feel like you've been struggling. I would totally check this conference out because it sounds like we are all approaching this from all kinds of different angles. There's bound to be some help in there for somebody who has been having a difficult time achieving that bond. I'm kind of a webinar junkie and one of my favorite webinars in my library is Denise's Leadership Webinar. And so just for that fact, I am like, sign up, y' all. Come listen to us. Because there's so much gold in here. Even if you feel like I couldn't get a better relationship, there's no way. Yes, you can. If that's something that you want and you feel like you want to next level your training or anything, this. This is how you do it. This is the foundation of everything.

Melissa Breau: I love that. All right, well, thank you all so much for coming on the podcast. It was so great to have all of you here.

All: Thank you, Melissa. Thanks for having us. My pleasure. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sue Yanoff to talk about sports medicine and the the importance of getting an accurate diagnosis. If you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice, our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSounds.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.

 Credits

Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!