E158: Denise Fenzi - "Making Lemonade"

After the cancellation of FDSA Training Camp 2020, FDSA and IAABC teamed up to turn the lemons life has dealt us into an extra special lemonade for the dog training community...


Melissa Breau: Hey guys — Melissa here, stopping in before your podcast to share a little about the FDSA Pet Professionals program.

The average pet dog trainer gets six hours with their clients — one hour a week for six weeks. Make that time count.

The FDSA Pet Professionals program can help. PPP believes in kind, pragmatic, and effective training, and that those three elements can set up dogs and their owners for a lifetime of success.

Its weeklong workshops are just $29.95. So if you're a professional trainer, take a few minutes to check it out at FDSApetprofessionals.com. Again, that's FDSA Pet Professionals.com.

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programing.

Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high-quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods.

I'm here this week with Denise Fenzi, and we're here to talk about the decision to cancel camp and FDSA's solution to providing community in these tough times.

Hi Denise. Welcome back to the podcast!

Denise Fenzi: Hey Melissa. How are you?

Melissa Breau: Good. And how are you?

Denise Fenzi: Hanging in there.

Melissa Breau: I think we all are. So, I mentioned in the introduction that we had to cancel camp for 2020. I know how much you love camp, and I'm sure that was an incredibly difficult decision. Can you share a little bit about your reasoning and what went into that?

Denise Fenzi: Yeah, Melissa. It probably is one of the hardest things I've ever done, for FDSA in particular. Camp is super-important to us. It's community. It's our opportunity to be together. At the same time, we've all been watching this come down the pike now for … I don't know. I assume most of us have been aware for weeks and well before there's been, let's say, a more formal government response. If people have been paying attention and watching the curves and listening, we knew that something had to happen, so we have been investigating.

Teri and I and you and a couple of other staff people have been talking abut the options and the alternatives, and what it came down to was we could wait a few more days — I think we canceled, I don't remember the date, it's been about a week now — we could have waited a few more weeks because we would not have taken on more expenses, just because of the way we're structured. We had done what we were going to do.

But what it came back to is that if students started purchasing their flights and getting their time off work, that if we did end up canceling late, it would be harder and harder for the students to get out. We felt that we were at a critical time, about two months out, for people to start making those decisions.

I would have a very hard time going on with my life if I felt I had put on an event and people had come there and become sick. We do — and we just put it out on the table — we do have an older population, and we know that. The FDSA population — we have lots of retired people who are involved in dog sports, and we have lots of people that I happen to know have varying degrees of health issues or immune issues.

I think sometimes when things get difficult, you just have to make a decision. As someone said to me recently … I talked about the concept of leadership in a webinar that I teach for dogs. I talk about dogs and leadership. In that webinar I said, "Somebody has to make a decision, and it's better to make a decision than make no decision at all, even if your decision is wrong."

And really, that's exactly what it comes down to in this situation. A decision had to be made, and I felt that it was better to make the wrong decision and then find out, oh well, I don't know, some miracle happened and they contained it and it's not going to be such an issue, because at the time we made the decision, things weren't where they are today. So today, for example, I can't leave my house. I'm sheltered in place. So things have changed incredibly quickly.

So even then it was, OK, the worst thing that happens is I make the wrong decision, and a year later I look back. But if the alternative is I went forward with something and then bad things happened, then I'd feel pretty bad about that. So I felt really sorry for myself for twenty-four hours and then we did it.

Melissa Breau: For those who had already registered, can you talk through what the refund policy looks like and what that process is? What folks should expect?

Denise Fenzi: This is the week we're going to get serious about making it happen. What will happen is you will get all of your … there's two parts to your fees. There's working spots and auditing spots, and honestly, I don't remember the dollar amounts. You will get the full amount back that you paid to FDSA.

The second part of what you paid was a registration fee that you paid to the event company, and it is not obvious that they will be refunding that. We will talk to them and we will do what we can, but unfortunately, we don't have that money. So you might lose that piece. It's relatively small, but you might lose that piece of your money.

Then there's also some logistical challenges because of how you get paid, so we have to figure out how to get the money back to you. But these things will be worked out as soon as we can, and then we will send out an e-mail and tell you exactly how it will happen. But you will get your money back.

Melissa Breau: Can you at this point talk at all about next year?

Denise Fenzi: We talked to the Linn County Fairgrounds, who, by the way — I have to do a little shout out here — they have been just stellar, fantastic in every way. They have tried so hard to work with us as best they can. They are rolling over our deposits to next year. It's minimizing our loss. So they have been hugely above board. They're refunding everybody's RV fees. They're doing that directly, by the way. You don't need to contact them. They're taking care of that.

If that happens, we have to make some other changes for the following year, but the goal is to return to Linn County next year and then push off the next years. But again, it's one of those domino effect things where everything relies on something else, and we are working our way through it as fast as we possibly can.

Melissa Breau: So we'll let folks know dates and confirm location for next year as soon as we know for sure.

Denise Fenzi: For sure, yeah.

Melissa Breau: I know you've alluded to this already, that cancelling camp felt like a huge blow, but it feels like it didn't take super-long before you started trying to think of a way to replace that sense of excitement and that sense of community, and I really think something pretty cool has started to emerge. Can you talk us through your thoughts after cancelling camp and why it was so important to you to come up with "something" to replace that?

Denise Fenzi: The morning I made the decision to cancel, I was feeling thoroughly sorry for myself, and so I was reaching out to people I respect and trust that also are in difficult spots.

One of the people I reached out to was Marjie Alonso at IIABC, and I said, "Life sucks over here. How's life over there?" She said, "Life sucks over here too." So we spent the next hour drinking and chatting on Facebook. I said, "I'm canceling this evening. What are you doing?" She says, "I'm cancelling. I'm going to cancel tomorrow morning."

We talked through the ramifications of that, and somewhere in that conversation — I'm pretty sure it was her, so hold her responsible — I'm pretty sure she said, "Someday our organizations should do something together." And let me tell you, you do not have to ask me twice. I was on that so fast. I said, "Yeah, you know what? How about right now?"

You could almost feel the … you know when you go on a first date and you kind of like someone and you think they might kind of like you, but nobody's quite sure what to do with that, so everybody's like, "I like you, do you like me?" kind of a thing going on? That's what was starting to happen really, really fast was like, "Do I like you well enough to make something happen?"

She's saying, "Let's make something happen," and I was saying, "I think we can make something happen," and she was saying, "I think we can," and then I said, "Well then, we're going to do it." She said, "We're going to do it. What are we going to do?" I said, " I don't know. We're going to do it, but we need to do it right now because everything is going so badly and we need a bright spot. We've got to make some lemonade." And that's where this came from.

For the next twenty minutes we basically structured the entire camp. We said, "Let's put the two camps together. We'll do it online." If there's one thing FDSA understands, it's online and it's education, and so how can we do this? We'll reach out to our instructors. And how can we make it international? Because this pandemic is not the United States. This is the whole world trying to make their way.

And so we're saying, "People are going to have financial problems. How are we going to do this?" We'll do scholarships.

People around the world never get to play in FDSA or IIABC camp because it's in the United States. How are we going to solve that? We're going to run sixteen-hour days. We're going to run days so long that anywhere you are in the world, assuming you're sleeping for eight, you have an opportunity to join.

And right now, maybe more than ever, our dog training communities and our people, we need to get together, we need to connect with each other, we need to find a way to make the lemonade. That is what happened. We agreed that night. I just remember, as we were signing off, we were saying, "We're going to do this. Yes, we're going to do this." Both of us are, "We're doing this. This is going to happen."

It was sort of a "Let's talk each other into it, make sure the other's onboard, and we're going to make this happen." I cancelled my camp when I got off that chat, she cancelled her camp the next morning, and right off the bat we were both saying, "There's going to be lemonade." And I don't think that was more than six days ago.

In six days we did camp, and I've got to say, Melissa, as a shout out to you, I have never seen anybody work so fast in my entire life to create a website, to create a behind-the-scenes volunteer setup that … I understand, people listening to this, I'm not sure if you will have seen it yet, depending on when this comes out, but I can tell you the structure is 100 percent in place.

If anybody's thinking you can't create a conference in two months, that's your error because you don't know us. We can do this. We are doing this. It's happening. IIABC has a very similar mindset. And you know what? You don't ask if you can do it. You just say you're going to do it. We are going to do it.

And now we're going to solve the problems as they come up. But really huge shout out to all the people involved, because people are working really hard right now, staying up late, getting up early, checking stats, reaching out. There's a lot to do right now.

I have talked to a whole lot of presenters in a short period of time, and every single presenter — they're responding to my inquiries quickly. People recognize that this is an urgent situation. We have to make this happen. And it's going to be amazing. I told Teri, "I don't want a T-shirt, I need a T-shirt, because someday, ten years from now, I'm going to look back and I'm going to want that T-shirt so people can say, "What's the Lemonade Conference?' and I'm going to say, "That's when people got together my community and we made things happen for everyone."

I think I might have to buy a lot of T-shirts — maybe in different sizes, too, just in case I gain a little weight or lose a little weight. I have to make sure I've got all my T-shirts lined up. Maybe a mug, too, like a little coffee mug. We're going to make this work for everyone. So everyone, go get your T-shirt, once they're available. They're not available yet, but they probably will be in, like, three hours.

Melissa Breau: I guess we're at the point where you've talked a little bit about the thing, but do you want to tell them what it actually is?

Denise Fenzi: Oh yeah. The Lemonade Conference. Here's what you have. On May 23, 24, and 25, we will start at 6 a.m. Pacific time. We will run until 10 p.m. Pacific time. There will be two classrooms available to you and it will be online. It will be a series of presentations. There will be eight a day. The presenter will be there live with you to answer your questions after the presentations.

The participants are a wide range I don't even know what the last count … I think it's well over thirty presenters. Not just FDSA camp, not just IIABC conference, but we brought in a few other people who said, "You know what, this is important, I want to do this too. So we ended up growing, which is amazing, on top of what we already had. FDSA — we have a huge number of presenters, over twenty, which is amazing.

What will happen is you will sign up for the entire conference and you can come and go whenever you want. So when you're available to watch or there's a presentation you want, you'll have a schedule, of course, so you'll know what's being offered. There will always be two possibilities at a time. We'll be running multiple classrooms to make sure you have that opportunity. Don't worry about the ones you cannot watch, because when the weekend is over, there will have been forty-eight total presentations. Those will all be available, the actual recordings — not the question and answer portions, but the actual presentations — will be in a classroom for you at FDSA. So effectively it will go into your class library, and that follows our usual library rules. That means that for one year you would have access to that, and that will keep you busy for some time.

If, at the end of the year, you purchase anything with FDSA, a workshop or a class — not a webinar, that's a different library — a workshop or a class, then your library does renew and that would means all your presentations would renew for another year.

If you are an IIABC member, they will also maintain your access there as well. So really you could only have your stuff at FDSA, everyone will have it at FDSA because registration will take place through FDSA. If you're an IIABC member, you would have it available in two locations, not that I think there's any particular benefit to that, but I don't know, maybe it makes you feel like Midas with your gold — twice the number of presentations, even if they are the same.

So that's what we're doing. That's camp in a nutshell.

Melissa Breau: One thing I think you left off is we do have a date for opening registration already. Do you want to share that?

Denise Fenzi: Yeah, but be quick to correct me if I'm wrong. Did we decide April 5? April 6. Excellent. Which day of week is that? Do we know?

Melissa Breau: It should be a Monday.

Denise Fenzi: Monday. All right. And we have an exceptionally comprehensive and generous program of scholarships. We're still working out the basic price. It's important to point out that both FDSA and IIABC are extremely committed to education over profit, so the price point will be very reasonable, and it's being designed to make this work.

In addition we will offer fairly generous scholarships and discounts for categories. So, for example, if your business is being severally impacted because of the virus, that's fine, you can ask for a coupon and you'll get a generous discount.

If you signed up for either IIABC or FDSA camp, you will also get a coupon discount to offset some of your expense. We will have our usual "Just because you don't have a lot of money" discount, that's an FDSA standard. Do you think I covered it? Oh, IIABC members will get a discount as well. And there will be an early bird discount. So let's try to make this work.

Melissa Breau: I think we've covered a little bit already, but is there anything else you want to say about where the idea came from or how it all bubbled up?

Denise Fenzi: I think the thing it goes back to is right now I think we need to feel like we're supporting each other and coming together, and education is a place where people can apply that in their homes with their dogs. That costs you nothing.

And so the ability to come up with something that people can use and kill some time because, like I mentioned, I'm sheltered in place. That means there are no movies, there are no restaurants to go to. I can't really do anything. And that's fine. But I can train my dogs. So my dogs are getting extra training. I can watch webinars. I can do those sorts of things, and so that gives people things to do while we work our way through the other side.

Melissa Breau: The last little bit here, but where should people go for more information?

Denise Fenzi: TheLemonadeConference.com.

Melissa Breau: Anything you can give us in terms of a sneak peek at topics or speakers?

Denise Fenzi: Yeah, I can do that. I've got a spreadsheet. I'll give you a little of this, a little of that. Some of the topics that are set up: We're going to talk about fitness. We're going to talk about resource guarding. We have a topic on working with sensitive dogs. I know that's a real issue for so many people.

Pattern games … oh, right there, I just gave it away, didn't I? Pattern games is Leslie McDevitt's thing, so that makes me think she might be participating. We'll be doing something on imposter syndrome. We know that lots of dog trainers struggle to feel like they deserve to be there, and you do, so we'll talk about that.

How about we talk about raising a well-adjusted dog. Right about now I know some people are a little freaked out about socializing puppies, so we'll talk about that. And then we have some of our standards: impulse control, recalls, marker cues. Some of you might know marker cues. I wonder who that might be.

We'll talk about motivation. How do you teach motivation? Talk about maybe consent, maybe start buttons. Oh, here's a good one. I love this topic: building endurance within work. That's super-important, comes up a lot. We'll talk about pain medication. Sue Yanoff has talked to us about that before and just did super job and was very appreciated.

The biology of anxiety. That's another name that might be familiar. That's Dr. Jessica Hekman. Hannah's going to play with us this year. She's going to join us. Let's see what she's going to talk about. No, I'm not going to tell you. I can't give away the store.

We've got one of our British FDSA instructors onboard, so you guys can play around and try to figure that one out. We've got a couple of Canadian friends that are going to join us. Is that enough?

Melissa Breau: I think that's good. That gives them a pretty good idea.

Denise Fenzi: You think that gives them an idea? Lots of really great people want to come up with some stuff for us.

I'm going to teach a webinar, a new topic, on positive is not permissive. That's a phrase that I first heard coming through Susan Garrett, I looking around the world, I think there's maybe some confusion in the world of positive reinforcement, about what does that mean.

I think it's a huge error. You can be permissive and you can be a very forceful trainer, and you can be permissive and you can be a very positive reinforcement trainer. Permissive and strict are totally different. You can be strict forceful trainer, and you can be a strict positive reinforcement trainer. That's just about how many rules you want to have, and how many you're wiling to enforce, and how you're wiling to enforce them.

It is absolutely an error to think that positive reinforcement is not only synonymous with permissive, but that it's even on the same playing field. It's not. It's a completely different category. It's just up to you if you want to be strict or not. I tend to run toward the permissive side about things I don't care about, but if I care, I care, and then I'm strict. Does that mean I turn mean? No. It just means that I'm paying attention to those things. So I will talk about that in my thing, and I will give you a whole lot of details and what-ifs: What do you do if.

The reason I relate it to parenting, because my talk will be heavily related to parenting, is I've noticed that parents seem to have no trouble being positive with their children. For example, it your child hits the ground and throws a first-class tantrum in Target, what do you do? You don't have to beat your child, but you also don't have to let your child hit the ground, throwing things and kicking and screaming. You probably pick the small child up and leave the store.

Now, for some reason, we have not been as effective in communicating to the positive reinforcement realm that anything you can do with a human child that would feel fair and comfortable to you should feel equally fair and

comfortable, and if my dog was in a space throwing a fit, I guarantee you I would pick said puppy up and I would leave that space.

That is the kind of conversation I think we need to be having and I find it goes better … people go, "Well, of course you're allowed to pick up your tantruming child and remove them from the space. You don't have to sit there having a conversation on the floor. You can leave and have your conversation later, if you wish."

If your child will not go in the car seat, what do you do? I think the vast majority of us say, "Well, sometimes things just have to happen." We don't let the toddler run around the car because he didn't feel like going in the car seat. When your dog does not feel like going in his crate because he prefers to ride loose in the car, it's up to you if it's something you care about, but this needs to be communicated much more clearly.

So I go through a whole lot of examples of different forms of what do you do when your puppies biting you? What do you do when your child's hitting you? If you start thinking in that way and you have some basic grasp of a positive approach to parenting, I think you will be amazed at how quickly and easily you can come to good answers for raising your puppies first of all to avoid problems, because I'll tell you right now that management … when you have a toddler, you childproof your house. Is there anyone on the planet who has not heard the expression "childproofing your house"? You childproof your house before the child is old enough to make mischief. You must puppy-proof your house. That's a standard.

When I had little kids, do you think I wanted to walk around following my toddler, "No, no, no, don't touch this, don't touch that. Protect my vase." Only a fool would do that. You pick stuff up off the table. You don't leave glass vases sitting there, because then your life is a misery, and who wants to have a miserable life with your puppy? That's why we puppy-proof the house. That's why we add areas of containment. You don't keep your child in their crib all day long. You don't need to keep your puppy in their crate all day long.

By drawing parallels, I think it's going to be a lot easier for people to quickly and in real time demonstrate the kind of leadership skills that you need to give for your children or your animals to more easily cede to your authority and allow you to make the decisions without it becoming a big problem.

So that's what I'm going to do in my talk is walk you through different ages and phrases. I call it puppy related, but it's really not. It's exactly the same for an adult dog as a puppy or as a rescue. It really doesn't matter.

That's an area I'm just really personally interested in. I think somewhere along the line someone got it in their head that when they said, "Ignore bad behavior," they actually meant that, and that's a bit of a misunderstanding. If you ignore bad behavior that has a self-reinforcing component, you better plan on seeing it for a long time.

So rethink that strategy both for children and for dogs, if it's not a behavior that's likely to be outgrown, because a lot of behaviors are, so I'm taking those off the table. But, alternatively, just be aware that if it has a self-reinforcing quality, you're going to see it again. So we're going to talk about all that kind of stuff in my presentation.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. And because clearly we're not keeping you busy enough, you also have a webinar on the schedule right now. We're scheduling repeats of your series on loose leash walking. For anyone who missed the buzz on that last year, can you share a little bit about the concept?

Denise Fenzi: Loose leash walking is one of those things that for some people is just the bane of their existence. One reason is that a lot of people want to go for a walk — like, really go for a walk. They don't want to train their dog. I try to reiterate this: dog trainers get dogs to train them. That's why we get dogs, because we think that's entertaining. But the average person does not get a dog to train it. They get it to love it.

They also want to do other things, like look at their neighbor's flowers, when they go for a walk. They don't want to train the dog the whole time. So that does seem to be one of the many contributing factors to the issue with loose leash walking.

But regardless, I decided to start playing around with loose leash walking after watching some local horse trainers handling fairly high-strung horses on the road. I noticed how they were using their circles, and I started thinking about what would happen if you let a young horse go in a straight line, how quickly you would completely lose control of them. And what do we do in with our young dogs? We let them go in a straight line right off the bat and we lose control, and they look a lot like those horses, and then people give up. They don't know what to do with it.

So I started playing with my own dogs, trying to better understand how circles could be used effectively, and I ended up coming up with a technique and approach to loose leash walking which is based on circling.

I am quite sure other people have done this in various places in the world before me, so I am certainly not claiming credit for that. But I will say that I have made some effort to put this information out into the public space, and I've gotten more feedback on this one technique of training than anything else I have done, with the possible exception of pocket-hand heeling.

People have come back to me and said, "I took my dog for a walk, and for the first time in eight years, I was able to do that without using a pressure collar because the dog was responsive." It's a big deal. It's something I feel very good about. I feel like I have contributed something useful to the dog world, and that means a lot to me.

So if you would like to learn an alternative method to teaching loose leash walking and it does not rely on food, if that is something that is of value to you, then you may want to join me. I would love to have you. You'll spend, I guess it's twenty dollars, or $19.95, to do a webinar, and I think you might pick up maybe a couple of ideas that you can incorporate.

Since you mentioned them, Melissa, there are two follow-ups, because the interesting thing that happened is that people with reactive dogs started saying, "Forget the loose leash walking. While convenient, that's nothing. What really matters is that my dog's reactivity has plummeted." That was certainly an eye opener.

I started paying attention, and indeed, this method does seem to have a really dramatically positive effect on reactive dogs. So I started working with a large group of people, well over a hundred, looking at videos, having conversations, and doing a lot of one-to-one coaching and feedback to see how we could apply this in a way that would help reactive dogs, and I think again we did. I say "we" because it was the FDSA student base who agreed to be the guinea pigs, and trying things out and incorporating the loose leash walking, the basic techniques, with other really good techniques that are out there that are designed to help reactivity.

So it ended up being a series of three. The first one is just walking on a loose leash. The second one was, "Oh gee, look, you can apply this to reactivity." And the third own was, "You applied it to reactivity and it didn't work. Now what?" Then it was the in-depth how you might combine this method with other methods that are also effective in the reactivity sphere.

So I'd love to have people join me, if that's your area of interest.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. I was going to ask you what some of the advantages of the method are. I think you've touched on some of those. Do you want to tap into a couple of the others?

Denise Fenzi: Probably the biggest ones are you can actually go and do it. You don't have to walk around your living room on a leash. Not that there's anything wrong with that. It's just hard for people to do it, to commit to it. As a matter of fact, the longer you're out, the better, so if you want to go for a one-hour walk, that's fantastic, because unlike most training, where you want the dog concentrating on what you're doing, we don't want the dog concentrating. We want the dog being a dog and finding their way to how it works better for them to be on a loose leash.

And then we want the owners to be so excited about the fact that they're walking their dog without it being a horror-fest that they take their dogs out more often and for longer walks.

One of the biggest things is you can make progress very fast being like a normal person, just going out and going for a walk and doing your thing with the dog.

The second one is it doesn't require any special equipment. Ideally you put your dog on a flat collar. In my opinion, that works much better than a harness. That generally does the trick.

The other big one is it does not require food. I don't use food. That means that if you have a dog who gets really excited in public and loses their interest in classic motivators, you can still train the dog just fine without adding those things in.

I think those are the things people go back to and say, "This is really what made the difference for me."

Melissa Breau: Awesome. All right, one last question, the one I always leave off on here. What's something you've learned recently or been reminded of when it comes to training, and can you share the story?

Denise Fenzi: I think what I'd like to do is change the question and say what have I learned about the dog training community. I'm going to say that I have learned that the dog training community has some really good people in it, some really warm, big-hearted people who want things to be better.

I know sometimes we focus on what we do wrong, and we know in dog training that is an error. So I would like to suggest that right now you look around you, and you find what people in the dog training community are doing right, the ways they are contributing to each other's wellbeing.

I am seeing people teach each other — Melissa, you are part of this — teach each other how to teach online, telling people what their options are, sharing the handouts that they are giving to their students.

At this time I am watching our community make really kind and community-oriented decisions, and I would like us to really focus on that, because it's so easy to get wrapped up in drama and what is wrong, and right now that's not a good idea. So let's focus on what's right, and if you take just thirty seconds to find it, you will find it.

I had a conversation this morning where I was offering something to another person, and we ended up in this bizarre contest of who was trying to do the right thing to the other. Both of us were insisting that we were in the better position to do the right thing. That is the kind of thing you need to be looking around saying … the other person in this case could have just said, "Thank you very much," and that's not what happened. It's becoming "How can we work together and make this happen?"

So that is what I have learned. It's been a nice opportunity to have my faith restored in some ways. There's some great people out there, so look around and find them, say thank you, and take a moment to appreciate what people are giving to you.

And before, I meant to say something about this, so I don't want to forget. We do have registration coming up very soon, and we have an exceptionally generous scholarship fund at FDSA. If you are going to want to take a class this term, if there is any part of your brain that's scared right now and unsure about what your future looks like, please get a scholarship. Please get a scholarship.

It is a very simple form. I'm not interested in your finances. I do not want to see your tax returns. All you need to say is that you could use some help right now. That's it. That's all you say, and you will get the scholarship. I probably shouldn't say that, but the truth is you will. You will get the scholarship.

So take those scholarships. It will cost you $32.50 to take a class at Bronze, and if that is going to make you happy and give you something to think about and focus on for the next six weeks, please take the scholarship.

You taking a scholarship does not take it away from another person. You do not need to be saying, "No, this other person over here needs it more than me." It does not work that way. If you would benefit and your life would be a little brighter, take the scholarship, take the class. That would make me really happy.

Melissa Breau: Awesome. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Denise, and for talking about all this!

Denise Fenzi: Thank you for having me, Melissa.

Melissa Breau: And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in!

We'll be back next week with Barbara Courier to talk about foundations for weave poles.

Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. 


Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.

Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!

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