Kim shares what free work is and how she's incorporated it into all aspects of her training — resulting in wide ranging benefits, from better arousal levels to better conformation. She says it's essentially meditation for dogs... join us to hear how you and your dog might benefit!
Transcription
Melissa Breau: This is Melissa Breau and you're listening to the Fenzi Dog Sports Podcast brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy, an online school dedicated to providing high quality instruction for competitive dog sports using only the most current and progressive training methods. Today I'll be talking to Kim Palermo about animal centered training and Free Work. Hi, Kim. Welcome back to the podcast. Hi, Melissa. So I want to have a start out by having you just kind of remind everybody a little bit about you, who you are, your dogs, that kind of thing.
Kim Palermo: Yeah, sure. So I am a Certified Control Unleashed Instructor. I think most of the students at Fenzi know me that way because I've taught quite a few CU classes. I am also an ACE practitioner. So Animal Centered Education Practitioner. Practitioner, which is kind of what we'll be talking about today more. And that's where I learned about Free Work. I think I'm like one of like three or four ACE practitioners in the United States right now.
I'm not sure how many of us there are. And so some of my students are familiar with Free Work just because I can't help but talk about it in most of my classes. And then as far as my dogs go, I'm probably best known for my collies. So I have my two collie girls, Jane and Sunday, my miniature poodle, Walt. And then I have a golden retriever, Fern, and another male collie named Lincoln. So five dogs and a cat who made his big Fenzi debut in our last class with his Control Unleashed skills.
Melissa Breau: So I wanted to have you on today to talk about the animal centered training and Free Work stuff, but maybe before we kind of dive into the work itself, I know Sarah Fisher, the founder of ACE, recently passed away. Super sorry for your loss. Do you want to talk just a moment about how you encountered Sarah in her work? Maybe what she meant to you?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, sure. So I will see if I can get through this without getting too emotional. I took my first class on ACE Free Work in June of 2023. But I was kind of, I don't remember how I had heard of it, but I was just kind of, you know, watching online and seeing some things about, you know, ACE and Free Work.
And I was very intrigued by it because it wasn't so much about training. It was also a lot about like dog like structure and body health and those kinds of things really interest me. So I started learning about it in June of 2023 and I've gone through now I'm currently in module five, so I've gone through nearly five modules with that, I got obsessed. Anyone who knows me, if it's something I really want to learn about, I become extremely passionate about it.
So dove in deep with my dogs, worked with some clients on it. But I also, like, I tend to think about, like, well, how can I incorporate this into the other things that I do, right? Like, control unleashed. And so I started playing around with those ideas. And the wonderful thing about Sarah, Sarah was just the kind of person. I mean, she was super passionate. And, like, the two of us would get.
I'd ask her a question or mention an idea I had, and the two of us, like, we'd be, like, giggling like schoolgirls over, like, these ideas, and we'd so easily get each other going. Sarah just, like, made everyone feel special. Like, anyone who met her, like, she remembered everyone's names, their dogs. She really, really was an amazing person. And brilliant, Absolutely brilliant. You know, I kind of. I got to know her through learning, but also, you know, we would.
I would message her on Facebook. We would meet once in a while. She was very open to me doing things maybe sooner than where my certification was ready for. Right. So even just teaching this class at FDSA is a huge honor. And, you know, she was so all for me doing these kinds of things. So, yeah, I think it's sad because I don't think I learned everything I had to learn from Sarah, but I definitely learned a lot.
And I'm so honored to be able to kind of continue what I've learned from her and, you know, spread the word about ACE and Free Work. So I know that's what she would want. So, okay, I made it.
Melissa Breau: So for people who aren't familiar with ACE and Free Work, who haven't really heard the term before, how would you describe what freework is in a way that's kind of intuitive and accessible for folks?
Kim Palermo: Yeah. So, you know, it's funny because I asked Sarah once what the elevator pitch was for Free Work. Like, if you had, like, three sentences to describe what Free Work was, because I never knew how to describe it. And she's like, well, I don't really have one. I was like, oh, well, that's not helpful. But if I were to put it in my own words, I would say that, simply put, this is very, very simplifying it.
Free Work is enrichment that's healthy for the dog or any whatever animal. It is for their mind, for their emotions, and for their body. So when I say enrichment, I think it's important to think about what that word means. It's certainly a buzzword in our industry. And when I think of enrichment, I'm thinking of something that's calm for my dog. It's not just keeping them busy, right? It's not just making them tired.
It's giving them something to do that's going to kind of calm their nervous system, relax them so that they're emotionally more happy. That's what I'm really looking to do. And so if I'm going to. So I'm going to try to describe what like a Free Work session would look like. So I have multiple stations and these stations are for enrichment for my dog. So they're either snuffle mats or some sort of snuffling thing.
It might not be a snuffle mat. It could be just like, you know, wrapped up towels or something like that. And then also like licking, you know, ways for our dogs to lick. So again, it could be a lick mat, but it could certainly be like, I have definitely used furniture where I will just smear peanut butter. And it got to the point where maybe my husband asked me to stop doing that.
But for me it's like any surface I could find. I'm going to apply some sort of licking food. But it's basically. So we have these different stations and you can start with like one or two and then build your way up to like. Usually I would say a Free Work session for my dogs would have anywhere from like six to 10 different stations. They're set up in a way that's comfortable for our dog's bodies.
So what that means is, you know, if we think of a dog that is snuffling on a snuffle mat that's on the ground, they have to lower their head all the way to the ground. And depending on that dog, you know, that could be putting a lot of weight on their shoulders. It could be putting pressure on their head or their neck. It could be making them so that they have to maybe hold their legs out wide or bend them a little bit at the elbow in order to access the food.
And so what we're doing is we're putting these, our dogs in these positions that might not be completely comfortable for them. So for Free Work, we're adjusting these enrichment stations in a way where our dog is comfortable. So usually that's like a snuffle mat that's like maybe like chest height for my dog so that way she doesn't have to bend down all the way in order to access the food.
And then I look to see you know, are her legs balanced? Is her top line straight? Do her ears look relaxed? And that kind of stuff gives me information that she's physically comfortable. And then by making our dogs physically comfortable, they're also going to become more emotionally comfortable. So, you know, I see a lot of discomfort in what, you know, someone would consider enrichment. I see a lot of frustration also.
So, you know, trying really hard to get the food, you know, that's not what I do. I'm making this, like, easy and relaxing for my dog. I'm not making it super difficult for them. And so, you know, that's what my. My session's going to look like. And my dogs are on their own. So it's completely. The dog is independent. Unless you're like me and you want to just stare and watch them like they're like a TV show or something.
Then, like, obsess over every little thing, but they're. They're independent. As your dog gets more, you know, skilled at Free Work sessions, you can incorporate yourself into it, but initially it's just the dog on its own. And then you're also varying the foods. Um, so I use. I probably use maybe like, four to five different kinds of foods for every session. So I try to go for, like, something soft, something small, something crunchy, something big.
I've even used, like, spaghetti because it's, like, a little unique for them. Right? It's a different texture. And same goes with our licking foods. I'm not freezing them or making it difficult or anything. Um, but I'm trying different things because I can also use Free Work to gain information about my dog. Like, what's my dog's preferences? I'm amazed by how much my dogs appreciate crunchy treats. And I just, like, I've always been that person that I'm like, you know, go to the food store and get, like, chicken breasts and cut it up, and that's your dog treats.
And, like, my dogs are like, no, I want crunch. Like, and I had no idea until I started doing Free Work. So that's kind of what it. It's so hard to describe, but that's essentially what it is. And what it does is it just kind of builds our dogs. Like, we're building body awareness. We're lowering, you know, their. Their arousal, resetting their nervous system. We're toning their body in such a very simple way.
This isn't like a fitness exercise, right? I'm not looking for my dog to do these big stretches and such, but with all of my dogs, I have noticed a difference in their toning, especially their core muscles. And it also builds better patterns in the way that they hold their bodies. So when we set these stations up properly, we're teaching our dog to use and move their body in the way that's going to be most healthy for them.
And then as they practice that, it becomes more and more natural for them in the real world. So, you know, for example, my puppy Sunday, I call her a Puppy. She's turning 2 next month, but I think I can still call her. She's still the puppy of the household. Yeah, she'll just be the puppy until I get another puppy, I guess. I think that's how it works. Yes.
So I do onformation with her and I would say like, I know I'm supposed to do like the Cavaletti's and the like, you know, do all this toning and stuff to get her body prepared. All I do is Free Work and then I take her for hikes and her body look amazing, like straight, top line. She's a beautiful gait. And I really think it's because like I've raised her on Free Work.
So since puppyhood she's just learned to use her body in the best way that she can. And then finally we can eventually use Free Work to work on other skills, you know. So if we go back to my puppy Sunday, right now I'm using Free Work to kind of work on some of her leash feelings because she gets, she feels some, you know, pressure and frustration when she's on the leash because she's really not on the leash all that often in day to day life.
So I'm using Free Work to show her, hey, the leash isn't that bad because we do have to get into the conformation ring next month and so the leash has got to go on. Yeah, yeah. So what benefits do you feel like Free Work offers? Dog sports teams in particular? Yeah. Oh my gosh, just so much. I think for one thing it's just an activity your dog can do.
That isn't training. Right. It isn't a sport. So we're often looking for ways to keep our dogs happy, keep them emotionally sound, keep them physically sound and this provides that for us. You know, I have snuffle room, which is essentially always set up for Free Work. So for me it's actually quite easy. You know, I'll fill it every day. And so my dogs just like have that activity that they can do.
So if I don't have time to train them, they have that. If we had like, let's say we did a training session. It was kind of a challenging one. I can then allow them to decompress with the Free Work session. I can have them warm up with the Free Work session. And then I also will take stations on the road. So when I go to trials, I'll bring, like, one raised snuffle mat.
Or maybe sometimes I get a little carried away, but, you know, it doesn't matter. So. But I always have some of that with them so that, you know, before we go into the ring, I can help my dog relax, essentially warm up her body, warm up her brain by having her do a little mini Free Work session, you know, right on one or two stations. It also really helps our dogs, like dogs that have big feelings.
So if they're reactive on walks, if they. If they're fearful and they tend to shut down, it allows them to just kind of like it. I think of it almost like meditation for us or even yoga. Like, it's that thing that, like, I can't tell you why meditation works, but it does, right? There's a reason why we're all supposed to do it. And so it helps our dogs in that way.
It's their own independent time where they can relax, use their noses, do something that's very natural. And so we can kind of help with any sort of big feelings, arousal, all of that. I also find it helps a lot for understanding my dog's food preferences and also building food drive. So. And I know that this can be something that's important for our sports dogs or even it can lower arousal around food.
So it can go either way. Right? So I'm gonna have to pick on Sunday once again. When she came to me, she's a very emotional little girl. That's why she ended up at my house. And she really doesn't have much of an appetite in general. And so I would actually feed her, just on a raised snuffle mat, all her meals. That's how she ate. And it was so adorable.
Like, I would just always have it set up in the kitchen where I keep the puppies. And she would just, like, once she started to really enjoy the Free Work, she would just, like, walk over to her station and sit next to it and be like, more, please. So it helped to. For her to build food drive. And even now, like, she's still, like, a little slow to sometimes eat her meals.
So I will just feed her her meal via Free Work. So I'll sprinkle kibble. And I often get the question, well, what if my dog eats Raw food, my dogs do. So I just put that on like a lick mat, like a raised lick mat, and she gobbles it all up. So it's really good for that. And then also we can use it to bring arousal down around food.
So a lot of my students, my Control Unleashed students, we've used like raised snuffle mats to lower arousal in trial environments, in classroom environments. Because the snuffling itself or the licking, we, we've had some students just like feed their dogs completely by, with licky food for control unleash because that just slows their thinking down, brings their arousal down. And then finally, you know, I think it's, it's been talked about a lot recently through FDSA, like with Denise in this recent online conference about like our dog's physical structure and how that impacts their ability to, to participate in dog sports.
And I mean this is just, it provides so much health for the body and strength for the body, body awareness, confidence in the body, ability to move properly. So it's going to help you with that also. So just to kind of dig a little deeper here, can you talk more about how Free Work is different from more like traditional Q based training and maybe how they can complement that?
Yeah, sure. So I don't think of Free Work really as training. And even when I like at the beginning of this class, we're going to kind of work individually on teaching calm snuffling and teaching calm licking. But I don't think of that as training. Like we're, we're teaching our dog these skills. Where I incorporated into cue based training is my use of it with control unleashed. So if we think of, you know, and where I really started seeing this was like, I was thinking like, let's think of like the up down pattern game.
So you place a treat on the ground, the dog eats the treat, they look up at you, you mark, you place another treat on the ground and there's a lot of repetition there. Right. So the dog is lowering their head all the way to the ground, eating food, looking up all the way at you, looking all the way down. That's quite the workout for their neck, right. And for their body, depending on the dog.
And so we can incorporate Free Work into our Control unleashed skills to make them more physically comfortable. So that could be with a raised snuffle mat. Also, Leslie McDevitt, who also she knew Sarah well and liked the idea of incorporating Free Work into CU. She created the lick and learn, which is like a little like essentially like a lick stick. Right. It looks like a spatula or something and you just smear lick food on it and you can hold it so that your dog's physically comfortable and they can still play these patterns, but without lowering their heads all the way to the ground.
And as a side benefit, and as someone who has chronic pain, it means I don't have to lower all the way to the ground to put the food down. So we're providing them structurally with more comfort. And then we're also using those ways of accessing reinforcement to lower arousal if it's through snuffling or licking. So. So we have that too. So you can take the concepts of Free Work and apply it to really nearly any sort of cue based training that you're doing.
And you can get so creative about it. It's kind of interesting to think about it that way, almost as a series of principles that you can use to influence how you arrange situations in training once you've kind of absorbed the them. Yeah, it's, it's everything I do with my dogs now. It's with the like an ACE mindset. So I think, you know, kind of when I went through your class trip and stuff, one of the things that kind of stuck with me was this idea of what does it mean, you know, for a dog to really feel safe when making choices and kind of the way that Free Work might benefit that.
Melissa Breau: So can you talk about that maybe how handlers can support that idea of safety?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, sure. What I love about Free Work is it's quite independent and I say that I love it, but I also like to be involved with my dogs. Right. And I like being engaging with them. So there's a love hate there, but it allows our dog to have that independence and they're making all their choices there.
We're not saying go to this snuffle mat first or eat this treat first. They are able to make all those choices on their own. And I mean, that's just so empowering on its own to be able to do that and work independently. And then it's really so cool when you do actually start to incorporate yourself into the Free Work sessions. And like, the dogs are like, oh, you can be part of this too.
And it's just like, that's just rewarding. Also, I had a session recently where Sunday, like wasn't really showing a lot of interest in food and she wasn't really interested in doing Free Work. So I just took one of the stations, I took like a lick mat and I sat down on the ground, and I just held it. And me being there was, like, enough to kind of get her like, oh, we can do this together.
And so she started on that station, and then she ended up going off on her own and finished up the Free Work session all by herself. So. So it's kind of like it allows our dogs to have this level of independence, and then this engagement that doesn't require it isn't based on training. And even some of the work that we do that I've done with Sarah is a lot of, like, kind of moving from station to station with your dog.
And the hardest part for me was not, like, waiting for behavior, right? Not marking for something. Like, you really want to kind of just be, like, part of it. Not, like, the reason the dog's making the choice. And that was extremely challenging. It still is. That's still hard for me. And especially with this, like, leash work with Sunday that I'm doing. But it's really cool because we. We kind of teach our dogs that they have a lot of ability to make their own choices and. And it's just so cool in that way.
Melissa Breau: Have you seen it change the way that dogs, like, think about or seem to approach, like, novel situations and stressors? Is it like, you know, confidence building? Is it curiosity building? You know, can you talk more, a little more about those aspects?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, all of the above. So, yeah, it's definitely like, I think every puppy should be raised with Free Work because I do think it really teaches them a lot about exploring.
You know, I think we underestimate the importance of what it means when our dog takes the time to sniff slowly and explore their environment. And I don't mean just in a Free Work session, like, even, like, out for a walk or something. Like, I'm looking for calm, relaxed exploration and sniffing. And that tells me that my dog is comfortable in their environment and that they're happy. It was when my dog Jane, earlier this year, she got spayed, and it was like, maybe day three, she started, like, sniffing on our little walks.
And I was like, yeah, that's what I'm looking for, right? She's feeling more herself. She's sniffing and stuff. So it kind of just builds that practice of doing that behavior and doing natural dog behaviors. And so then that's going to just give them more confidence when they are in the real world to explore. It's going to give them that physical confidence, right, to maneuver things and move around them.
And then certainly we can incorporate different. We can even incorporate novel items into the session. And what I like so much about it is we're not using the food and certainly not using training to say, you must interact with this novel thing. Instead, we're just putting it there and allowing them to make the decision. So often what I'll do is, like, I, you know, I usually put some Cato boards down, but sometimes I'll put, like, a different texture down or something.
And I was working on my dog's arousal around sheep, so I put some sheep wool into their session. And so it was just like, little ways of incorporating things. I also started because my. My two collie girls have some feelings about my flock, my. My chickens and ducks and stuff. So I was bringing some shavings into the Free Work session. So I'm just allowing them to kind of discover the world, but in the comfort of that Free Work session and with no pressure whatsoever to interact.
And then I've just seen, you know, Sunday in particular, she was, as a baby puppy, had a very hard time with novel situations. And I mean, her confidence is just. I'd love to know who she would be if I hadn't done all this work. Right. So it's like, I can only guess, but, I mean, she's an extremely confident little dog. She came to camp with me and everything, and I think people heard her because she does bark, but she was very confident in the situation, so it certainly helps with that.
Melissa Breau: Yeah. Super interesting you talk about it that way, because it reminds me of hearing Leslie McDevitt talk about some of the control unleashed stuff when I've seen her present in person. And I can see, as you talk about it, just how obviously they would fit while still being distinct things, you know?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, yeah, it's. It's pretty cool how well they fit.
Melissa Breau: For people who, you know, kind of want to begin exploring this concept, what are some simple ways that folks can give it a try even if they, you know, never done this before?
Yeah. I would say the first thing you could do is just set up, like, a station or two and just see what your dog thinks. So when I tell people to try this out, like, there's a few things I suggest they look for on the dog's body, and that kind of tells us that the station is comfortably arranged for them. So you want it to be raised up so that they're not lowering their head too much, like I said.
And usually what happens is when we find that perfect height, we get a straight top line. And now every dog is going to be different, and every dog's built differently, and your dog might not be able to get a straight top line, but what we're looking for is the least amount of roaching or, you know, sway in their back that we can get. We're looking for some balance in their legs.
So front legs, like, I want their shoulders and their, you know, their legs to be directly under their shoulders. I want to see straight hocks. I don't want. What we often see is like this angulation in, right? So, like, the chest kind of goes over the toes, and then maybe the rear toes kind of go under the abdomen, right? And that's the dog kind of supporting their body, their core in their back.
So I want to see more balance, more structure. So I'm looking for that. And again, it's. We're not always going to get it. And I love one thing that Sarah said recently when I was learning from her, is it's not looking for perfection, it's looking for possibility. And I just love that because, you know, I kind of over. I overanalyze my dogs. Not even kind of I do.
And, like, sometimes I really get hung up on stuff. But then I have to remember, like, Jane's back looks so much better than it ever has. And if I happen to neglect Free Work for, you know, maybe I'm, like, traveling a lot for two or three weeks, I see a change in her back. So it has to remind me that even though her body isn't perfect, it's better when I'm doing Free Work.
So. So I'm looking for those two things, kind of that balance in their four legs, a straight top line. And then I like to look at the tail for emotional relaxation and also how much tension is in the dog's body. So I've got, you know, my collies, they've got nice swishy tails, so it's pretty easy to tell with them. But, like, I've got my mini poodle. When he moves around, his tail's up and it's pretty stiff. In general, what I'm looking for is just any sort of softness. So a lowering of the base of the tail. And then if the dog has long hair, you can see a softness in, like, the way the hair moves because, like, even their fascia is going to influence how their hair moves. Tightness in their muscles is going to influence that. So I'm just looking for softness.
And usually I'll look for the tail in the tail for that. So a lowered tail, I'm not looking. I don't want to see tension in the tail. And again, this might take time. Right. Like the first time you do this, the dog might just be like, woo, this is great. It's a party. And their tail's up the whole time. What I'm looking for is that softening and that relaxation.
So that's, I mean, that sounds like a lot, but really just like we're looking for a straight top line, balanced legs, soft tail. So, so we're just adjusting things and that's either adjusting the height, adjusting the food, adjusting the ease of accessibility of the food. Right. So we're just kind of tweaking things until we see those, those things in our dogs. You'd mentioned kind of using Free Work to work on Sunday's leash feelings.
Melissa Breau: So how can Free Work dovetail with other training goals? Things like leash work or agility prep or obedience cues? Kind of some of the other things that maybe folks listening to this work on with their dog.
Kim Palermo: Yeah. So for the example of like Sunday with her leash feelings, what I'm doing right now is I'm attaching. Actually, it's not even a leash. I've, I'm taking yarn, long yarn, and I'm looping it through her collar.
And then I'm just kind of allowing that to be part of the session. And I'm kind of just standing there holding the yarn. And in, in addition to that, one of the kind of ACE practices that we do is called lighting the way. And this is essentially like using our body the way. We're, you know, where we're looking, where we're standing. And a lot of us who do sports, like, we already know this stuff.
Right. Like if you want your dog in heel position, you know, don't have your, your shoulder, go back or, you know, there's, there's ways we understand how to use our bodies. And so this part actually came quite naturally for me. But we can essentially guide our dog from station to station with our bodies. And then I can incorporate the leash into that. And then the tricky part is not pulling out my clicker and being like, yeah, you did it right, right there.
Because I really want to honor what Free Work is and keep it sacred. This isn't when we're training. But in addition to that, when I think of agility prep, I had one student in my Big Feelings class and she was using one Free Workstation as essentially a start button opportunity for her dog. He would get over aroused in doing the weave poles, even just during practice barking. He would run through them before she cued him.
And usually he would come out before he was at the end of the 6 or 12 polls. And so we incorporated some like up down at that station and then ultimately like a little start button and then she would cue him to the do the weaves and oh my gosh, it was like night and day. Like suddenly he's like doing these beautiful weaves and he's not barking at all.
And we just kind of took those good feelings, the low arousal that the snuffle brings, incorporated a little bit of CU and we just got this like beautiful work. So we can just kind of adjust it in so many different ways. I use it a lot for anyone who's familiar with like opt out stations. That's essentially a Free Work station. And with that I'm kind of giving my dog the opportunity to opt out really at any time, which might sound a little counterintuitive, but it does actually work and we just, we do that with Free Work.
So my dog can say I'd rather go snuffle right now comfortably than do this skill because you just confused me with your, you know, human nonsense or whatever it was. So yeah, there's so many ways we can incorporate it into that kind of stuff. You mentioned confirmation and structure earlier.
Melissa Breau: Can you talk a little more about how kind of that fits into the Free Work piece? Like it sounds very gentle and so I think a lot of people feel like they have to do more fitnessy type things to see a result. So just. Can you talk about it a little more?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, so if I think of. So I have collies and they're a free stacking breed. So if we're thinking of conformation, so they kind of essentially have to stack themselves, I can't really hand stack them. So by using Free Work, you know, I would adjust the height of the stations. I often use, like I mentioned using Cato boards.
I often use like a platform in front of the stations, which kind of helps my dog kind of like put a little bit of weight forward and then they straighten out their hocks a little bit. They look beautiful. I love how they look when they're set up like that. And so essentially Sunday has practiced over the past two years how to stand in this naturally balanced way. So then when I get into the show ring, that's just how she stands.
You know, when I go out for a hike and she like stops, I can't even tell you. I hike with my friend and it's like probably two or three times during our hike, I'm like, oh my God, look at how beautiful she is. Right. Because Sunday's just standing there, but she's just learned to naturally hold herself in that way that's using all the right muscles. Right. And so balanced and grounded.
Also, like, she's just. The way she balances, the way she's standing, she just seems so secure with, like, how she's holding her body and how she can move her body. And of course, that's going to help my dog in the conformation ring, but also, you know, the obedience ring or the agility ring. The more I can kind of give my dog that, you know, confidence in their body, the better.
And then I had mentioned, like, with Jane with her back, like, her back tends to, like, she's got a long back, so it kind of sways a little bit, it dips a little bit. And especially when I haven't done Free Work in a while. And I mean, this is. I still. I hike my dogs daily. So this is despite, like, all the hikes and everything, when she does Free Work, just the way she's standing and holding her body, it's using the right muscles.
So our dogs tend to. If they have some sort of pain or discomfort, they're going to use other muscles instead to compensate for that. Right. And so if our dogs are doing that and they're constantly kind of overcompensating, then they're gonna. We're gonna see it in the way they hold their bodies. And here we can allow them to practice holding their body in a comfortable way, and we can, like, if they have pain or discomfort.
So my miniature poodle has chronic pain. He's got IBDD and he's got, like. So he's got neck and back stuff. By doing Free Work, I'm kind of building those little muscles around his spine and around his neck, and I'm creating fluidity there. I'm loosening his muscles a little bit so there's less tension and there's so much more softness in his body now. And so those little changes are what I'm looking to accomplish now.
If I were to give my dog a frozen topple and they're like, you know, got their paws wrapped around it and lowering their head, and their butt's in the air, like, and they're getting frustrated, and they're using their jaw a lot, like, I could be causing a lot of tension. I could be causing a lot of discomfort. I'm not allowing my dog to practice using their body in the best way that they can, if that makes sense.
Melissa Breau: Yeah, absolutely. Kind of just to pull apart another, like, piece that you'd mentioned you were talking about kind of preferences and tendencies and things that we maybe don't see in more structured training. And you mentioned, like, the crunchy treat thing. What other types of things do you see Free Work, you know, reveal about your dog's preferences or their tendencies or, I mean, you're even just talking about, like, the way they tend to stand. Right? Like, what do you feel like you've learned about your dogs through Free Work that maybe you wouldn't have learned through more traditionally structured training?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, well, definitely you can learn about discomforts that they might have. So if my dog is consistently, she's got one leg in front of the other or something, I know she's offsetting her weight for whatever reason. So then that gives me information. For me personally, I work with a chiropractor and massage therapist for my dog.
So then I can go to them and say, this is what I'm seeing in Free Work. And so I think we need to work on this. So it certainly tells us information about that. And then it does. Like, even when it comes to, like, is my dog, does she go to the snuffle mat first or did she go to the lick mat first? And sometimes, like, I like to also put out, like, two things for my dogs and so that it's an option for them during a Free Work session.
So I find that Sunday actually likes to lay down and chew a bone first and then start snuffling. So chewing is very important to her, and I think that's a really helpful way for her to process information. One thing I learned about Walt, my mini poodle, in doing Free Work, he was. He's got, you know, he's 13 years old. He doesn't have the best teeth at this point.
So I'd leave a chew thing out for him and he'd like, kind of get weird about chewing on it. And then he'd, like, he would actually lift it up onto one of the stations. I kid you not to try to make it more comfortable, but it still looked uncomfortable to him. So I ended up getting a celery stalk and I held it for him because I held it up high.
And oh my gosh, he had so much fun just pulling that celery stock apart. So I'm, you know, I'm like realizing, like, he loves to dissect things, right, and pull things apart. So now I try to. If I'm part of his Free Work session, I'll sit there with like a celery stalk and he'll do everything else and then eventually he'll come over and pull the celery apart. And then he's done that.
That's. That's his finishing point. You know, sometimes they'll have, like, a toy or something in there to see if they choose that. And I also find that, like, all my dogs have. They each have, like, their own favorite station. And what I'm finding is really interesting lately is I played around with. So when I was hiking my dogs, I noticed, like, where I hike, it's like a mowed path and then long grass on either side.
Well, not right now. Right now it's all ice, but in the summer, it's this long grass. And my dogs would, like, go off the path and they'd, like, walk through the long grass for a while, and then they'd come back and they kind of just sway in and out. And I'm like, you know, they must really love that feeling of the grass on their face. So I did have a friend make grass snuffle mats for me, so that was one thing I incorporated.
But then I also. She made me, like, these long, like, strips of yarn. Like it. But it's, like, really thick yarn. I don't really know how to describe it. And so my dogs have to, like, put their heads into it in order to access the snuffle mat. And. And they're all going to those stations first. So for whatever reason, that feeling of something on them. And, like, also, like, I'll do things where they have to, like, push around, like, little towels or T shirts or socks or something to find stuff.
So you just learn so much about your dog and what they enjoy. It's just so cool. And then, of course, you know, if they leave food, if there's a certain food that they don't eat, well, that's information for me. Or what food do they go to first? That's information for me. So. Yeah. So much that you can learn by watching them. Yeah. I'm telling you, it's better than watching a movie.
Melissa Breau: So we're talking about all of this because you do have a class on this stuff coming up in the February term. ACE Free Work. Do you want to talk a little more about kind of the class in particular, like, what pieces of this you're covering, maybe who might want to sign up, what people can expect to learn some of that kind of stuff?
Kim Palermo: Yeah, sure. So I don't know. I'm hoping to make this class, like, really magical because it's. It means a lot for me. It's such an honor. Like, I said to be able to teach this and for Sarah to have agreed to it, of course, I wanted to share with her my lectures and how it went and everything. So I really, really want to make this special. I think, for one, anyone can take it.
Really. This is going to benefit every dog out there. So if someone's interested, then take it. Um, we're going to work on. I do want to. One of the things that I do a little bit differently than the way ACE approaches things is I do like to kind of, like I said, teach calm snuffling and calm licking prior to creating sessions, because I think it's important for the student to see what that looks like and see what a calm behavior from their dog looks like.
And then we're going to just individualize, learn how to individualize the stations for our. Our dogs, so how we can set them up in a way that's structurally sound with them, and then how to build stations from there. And definitely I'm also going to incorporate some of the ways that we can use, like our other sports or skills or whatever it might be, and how we can utilize Free Work to help our dogs with those.
And I will have a study group also for my bronze students. And it's my TA Nicole, who's been TAing all my CU classes. She's not certified in ACE, but she's like the person when I like to geek out, I call up Nicole and I'm like, I gotta show you this stuff. So she knows a lot about Free Work because I can't help but share what I learned. So we'll have that going on as well.
Melissa Breau: Awesome. All right, any final thoughts or maybe key points you kind of want to leave folks with about this stuff?
Kim Palermo: I don't think so. I just think it's this. This would be a gift for your dog if you signed up for this class and learned how to do this for your dog. It's. It's a gift for your dog and. And you're probably going to benefit too, but. But, yeah, it's a pretty cool thing.
Melissa Breau: Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Kim. Thanks for having me. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week, this time with Sharon Carroll to talk about engagement for differently motivated dogs. If you haven't already subscribe to the podcast in itunes or the podcast app of your choice, you have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available.
Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by BenSound.com the track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.
Credits
Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by BenSound.com; the track featured here is called "Buddy." Audio editing provided by Chris Lang.
Thanks again for tuning in -- and happy training!